Whither Georgia?

Discussion in 'The Near Abroad' started by Moscow Exile, Sep 26, 2013.

  1. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Failed Washington sock-puppet throws a tantrum at UN.

    See: Russian UN delegates walk out over Saakashvili’s ‘Russophobic and anti-Orthodox’ speech

    There still appear articles in the West that state that Russia waged a planned war against Georgia and now occupies Georgian territory, namely South Ossetia and Abkhazia, as do some Georgian commentators to the above linked RT article.

    Will Georgia come closer to Russia or will it still persist in pursuing Saakashvili's dream of it becoming an EU member state, a Ukraine in the Caucasus as it were?
  2. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    A Dog and Its Master


    [​IMG]


    "Have I served you well, master?"
  3. Carlo

    Carlo Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    I didn't understand the attack against the Russian Orthodox church:
    "When we hear the fake music of the orthodox brotherhood sung by Russian imperialists, can't we hear the true voice of the Patriarch Kirion who was assassinated or the eternal voice of the Patriarch Ambrosi Khelaya who was tortured during days and weeks only because he appealed to the Geneva Conference against the invasion of his country? Are we so deaf as not to hear the voices of the killed bishops and priests? Are we so uneducated that we do not recall who has repainted our churches and erased our sacred frescoes?"
    If I am not mistaken, the Georgian Orthodox church has no quarrel with the Moscow Patriarchate, and no one is trying to set up an independent Patriarchate, as in Ukraine. Does anyone have more details about the relation between the Russian and Georgian churches?
  4. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Here is the full text of Saakashvili's speech.

    http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=26491&search=

    I should first of all say that on the subject of Orthodoxy I think there is a misunderstanding. Saakashvili did not attack Orthodoxy. What he attacked was what he says is Russia's manipulation of Orthodox Christian values in order to promote its geopolitical interests.

    In all other respects the speech is every bit as bad as is being said. Indeed the intensity of its Russophobia and anti Russian paranoia is quite astonishing. Notice how he extends his anti Russian narrative all the way back to the time of Catherine the Great, taking in Nicholas II, the Communists and Putin along the way. The fact that the cruellest Communist atrocities were committed when Stalin and Beria (both Georgians) were in charge needless to say never gets mentioned.

    With his open incitement of Russian minorities to rebel against the Russian state Saakashvili makes no secret of his desire to see Russia's complete disintegration. That is of course is the wish of many Russophobes. With his political career drawing to a close Saakashvili openly admits it. Needless to say his extreme Russophobia is allied to a total inability to admit on his part the slightest error or to acknowledge that he is guilty of the very thing (persecution of minorities and military expansionism) he criticises Russia for.

    My brother (who is a European affairs consultant) recently visited Georgia and told me that amongst the largely elite people he met in Tbilisi it is now widely accepted that Saakashvili is deranged. His Presidential palace is apparently colloquially called "Caligula's Palace". Reading this speech, directed at the powerful country that is Georgia's neighbour and which it is in Georgia's overriding national interest to establish an equitable relationship, it is not difficult to see why.

    Lastly, on the subject of my brother's visit to Georgia, amongst the small number of non elite Georgians he encountered he discovered intense nostalgia for the Soviet period. He also tells me that amongst that class of person Shervadnadze is almost as widely despised as Saakashvili. Apparently Shervadnadze is widely seen as deeply corrupt and is believed to own most of what is left of Tbilisi's old town.
    Last edited: Sep 26, 2013
  5. Carlo

    Carlo Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Interestingly enough, as you brought the subject, the Polish and Georgian leaders inaugurated a monument to Prometheus in Tbilisi six years ago:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Amirani_-_Georgian_Prometheus.jpg
    For those who don't know, it is an open support to Prometheism, a movement created by the father of the modern Polish state, Josef Pilsudski, to break up what he called the "prision of nations", Russia (and its successor, the USSR). So I don't find it surprising that Saakashvili consider the Russian Empire, the Soviet Union and the Russian Federation as being the same institution with different names, as he adheres to Prometheism. What is utterly shocking is the manipulation of history, as Georgia in the late 18th century openly asked the Russian Empire to protect it from the Ottoman Empire, and the Bagration royal family had a very notable role in Russia from them on, especially Prince Mikhail Bagration who was a hero in the 1812 war.
    Alexander Mercouris likes this.
  6. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    The relationship between Georgia, its natives and Russians is far closer and runs far deeper than Saakashvili and his controllers would have the uninformed believe.

    There are an estimated million Georgians living in Russia now - nobody knows for sure. Saakashvili called every one of them "traitors" to Georgia a few years ago. Many of these emigré Georgians are restaurateurs: Georgian cuisine, hospitality, music, singing and dancing are immensely popular amongst Russians and there must be few places in Russia that do not have a Georgian restaurant that is a popular venue for social gatherings such as wedding receptions. To my knowledge there are three such restaurants within close vicinity of my house in central Moscow. On the negative side of this relationship, in Russia there are a large number of criminal gangs, each of whose members being known as a "thief-in-law" (вор в законе - vor v zakonye). Such thieves-in-law are very often Georgian. In fact, the "export" of thieves-in-law from Georgia is a major concern of Russia and the Ukraine, these criminals being "Georgian traitors" whom their host countries would prefer stay at home.

    See also:

    Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs confirms that now [2009 - ME] over a half of 1,200 “thieves-in-law” are immigrants from Georgia.

    and

    Thieves of the Law and the Rule of Law in Georgia
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2013
  7. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Indeed it is the same Promethean foreign policy that Pilsudski could only impose on Poland by establishing a military dictatorship, which caused Poland to form a de facto alliance with Nazi Germany in 1934, which soured relations with the USSR to such an extent that it became impossible for Poland and the USSR to form a united front against Nazi Germany when threatened by its aggression, which was the reason for the Katyn massacre and which led Poland to complete disaster in 1939. It also of course led Saakashvili to disaster in 2008.

    As I know for myself most Poles do not support this policy (just as they didn't in the 1920s and 1930s)even if Poland's venal and incompetent elite does. It promises Poland and Georgia and the Baltic States endless confrontation with Russia, which is a far more powerful country than any of them are whether by themselves or in combination. How is that in their interest? On the contrary it will end in the same failure that it did in the 1930s and 1940s.
  8. MarkPavelovich

    MarkPavelovich Commissar

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    Ivanishvili has openly discussed the possibility that he will attend the Sochi Olympics as head of the Georgian State if invited.

    http://en.rian.ru/sports/20130514/181136013.html

    This is a refreshing far cry from Saakashvili's foam-splattered, barking mad efforts to whip up a boycott. You would think a man who lives right next door to Russia and who will very soon not have a security detail to attend upon him everywhere he goes would learn to watch his mouth. But looking ahead critically was never Saakashvili's strong suit, whether he was rhapsodizing about the inrush of tourism which was going to exceed Georgia's actual population, or musing that Tbilisi is so honest that most people don't even lock their doors (the same year the American foreign-affairs section issued a warning to travelers that carjackings and kidnapings were on the rise in Georgia and that petty crime was rife). I sure miss the Georgian Media Center - they were an opposition site (mostly) with great stories about Saakashvili cosying up to Iran and outspending his rivals in elections by ludicrous margins and so forth. But when he won his second term, it abruptly changed to this Facebook-type format which required you to sign up for membership, and its format changed to gushing Georgia tourism-promotion and light small talk.
  9. royotoyo

    royotoyo Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    This. I am optimistic that Russo-Georgian relations are on the mend and will continue to improve. I, for one, am happy to have Barjomi back on the market. For all the different mineral waters I've tried as a replacement, nothing comes close. Furthermore, the QC of Georgian wine has gone through major improvements from what I remember. The price to quality ratio isn't quite at the level of most of the new world stuff, yet, but I buy it on general principle anyway. From what I can tell, I'm not alone. My very informal survey of retailers has them all saying the same thing: Georgian wine is flying off the shelves faster than they can restock.

    I look forward to visiting Georgia, which is someplace I've always wanted to go but was on my black list until Saak was out of power. Again, I heard on the radio recently that those in the Georgian tourism industry have been pleasantly surprised at the influx of Russian tourists since Ivanishvili's election. They are saying that there are some two to three times more Russian tourists than in the past.

    My hope is that Georgians will soon notice the effect of the reopening of the Russian market and that their politics will eventually become a reflection of this reality. Economics tend to trump politics. Georgians and Russians should be friends, not enemies. Prior acrimony should be forgiven, chalked up to a hothead leader and over-ambituous geopolitics by an imperialist great power.
  10. Drutten

    Drutten Collegiate Secretary (10th class)

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    Now it's a little more than 5 years since those fateful August days and the then-rampant propaganda war has now been toned down sans its former raison d'être. In the midst of the ongoing Georgian elections, certain Western newspapers are now relaying little bits of information regarding the Saakashvili regime and its oppression, nasty details about the actions of the Georgian military before and during the war among other things.

    I was a bit surprised (borderline shocked) to see Swedish national newspaper SvD relay various snippets regarding the planning and execution of the initial Georgian attacks on South Ossetia, the surprise backstabber attack on Russian UNOMIG peacekeepers by Georgian ditto et cetera. Not only that, but they also included what former general Tsitelashvili had to say about the Georgian plans to apparently maximise civilian casualties for propaganda reasons by preventing said civilians from fleeing areas where the Russians were expected to show up after Georgian military actions had lured them there. This Tsitelashvili says he initiated an evacuation of civilians in one of these areas upon arriving there, something that led to him being arrested, imprisoned and tortured for years at the Gldani prison in Tbilisi. For treason, apparently.

    After five or so years of one-sided reporting and blatant factual inaccuracies, reading this was mildly jaw-dropping. Perhaps mostly because of the fact that when the very same information came out of Russia years ago, it was laughed at and various pundits took turns at roasting this silly Russian propaganda exercise.

    And to quote one of the people interviewed in the article, opposition member Kakabadze:
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2013
  11. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    The exit polls from the Georgian Presidential election give Ivanishvili's candidate between 65-70% of the vote. Saakashvili's candidate got around 20%. The balance of around 10% was won by the former parliamentary speaker who was until 2008 one of Saakashvili's most stalwart supporters but then fell out with him and is without much justification that I can see now considered the most pro Russian candidate.

    Saakashvili and his regime are dead and gone.

    I should say that though I am delighted to see the back of Saakashvili I am not totally happy about the overall situation. Ivanishvili has said that having seen Saakashvili off he will now retire from politics. This seems to me an irresponsible decision for a political leader in Ivanishvili's position to take. Given the way Ivanishvili destroyed Saakashvili and given the enormous power his wealth gives him the overwhelming fact of his existence will now hang over Georgia like a dark cloud. From now on no political leader in Georgia will be able to make a decision without peering over his shoulder and wondering what Ivanishvili is thinking. Even if that is not Ivanishvili's intention I can easily see how that might stunt political development in the country. At worst it could make Ivanishvili into a sort of shadow Shogun, running Georgia from behind the scenes. Unaccountable power is always bad and it seems to me that that is what whether he wants it or not Ivanishvili now has.
  12. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Yalensis on Kremlin Stooge has confirmed that the turnout figures in the Georgian Presidential election were just 46%. These are very disappointing turnout figures, which show just how disillusioned Georgians have become with the political process in their country.

    Incidentally if Saakashvili's candidate got 20% on a 46% turnout that means he must have got less than 10% of the total Georgian electorate to come out and vote for him. That shows how completely support for Saakashvili has collapsed. I appreciate that all the candidates are equally affected by the poor turnout but at around 30% of the total electorate Ivanishvili can at least argue that his candidate does have a significant amount of support. Ivanishvili after all does not claim he is the second King David the Builder or make whatever other fantastic claims Saakashvili made for himself. For a normal politician an electoral base of around 30% of the electorate is a solid base on which to build. For a would be messiah such as Saakashvili less than 10% is pathetic and frankly a disaster.

    Now that he is finally out of office I wonder whether any prosecutions will be brought against Saakashvili. It wouldn't surprise me. There must be a great many people in Georgia itching to settle accounts with him. For example there is the family of Zurab Zhvania, the former Prime Minister of Georgia and co leader with Saakashvili of the Rose Revolution, who supposedly died as a result of a gas leak but who many think Saakashvili had murdered. Then there is Okruashvili, Saakashvili's former defence minister, who Saakashvili drove into exile. Then there is the family of Badri Patarkatsishvili, the Georgian oligarch and former associate of Berezovsky's, whose television station Saakashvili also seized and who he also drove into exile and who subsequently died suddenly in England. Then there are all those people whose property was taken from them in supposed tax enforcement or who were sent to prison and tortured there the hose videos of which precipitated the crisis that caused Saakashvili's election defeat.

    There must also be support in Georgia for a proper investigation of the 2008 war to find out what really happened and what indeed the truth was about all the other incidents, which in the lead up to that war so disastrously poisoned relations between Georgia and Russia. After all for Georgia and for Georgians the 2008 war was a national humiliation and disaster.

    The Americans and the Europeans can however be relied upon to do all in their power to protect Saakashvili and to prevent any prosecution being brought against him. They will certainly not want a deep examination of the events of the 2008 war, which might expose their own mistakes. The trouble Yanukovitch is having with the case that was brought against Tymoshenko is presumably warning enough to whoever is now in charge of Georgia to steer clear of any prosecutions of Saakashvili of which the west disapproves.
  13. royotoyo

    royotoyo Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    Everything I'm hearing from experts in Georgia on Russian radio says the same thing. Saak has two choices: leave the country, or stick around and go to jail. I, for one, would love to see him behind bars. But my guess is he'll end up as a guest lecturer in some US Ivy League institution of higher education.
  14. royotoyo

    royotoyo Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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  15. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    It seems, according to this KP report, that Saakashvili has flown out of Georgia and has made no promise of returning.

    Nobody has any idea what he intends doing and where he will finally settle:

    "On Tuesday night the former president left the country

    However, before the election Mickey had vowed that he would not leave home, saying that he would neither forsake the country nor succumb to anyone's order that he do so. But no sooner had the pathetic results for Saakashvili's party in the presidential elections been declared (his protege scored twice fewer votes than did the candidate of the opposition group 'Georgian Dream'), than the loser president flew off in the night bound for Brussels.

    The TV channel 'Rustavi 2' reported that Saakashvili will not return, denying passionate Georgians a restful sleep. Yes, and Mickey had fueled ordinary folk's suspicions, saying in his post-election speech to the nation: 'Ten years ago, I offered you a trip towards the future, but did not promise that we'd get to the end ... The time has come when you have to take a break from me." He added, however, that he was going to Brussels 'to clarify the position regarding the last presidential election in the country'. The loser ex-president confusingly explained that 'it would be sad if Georgia moves in the wrong direction, but I warm to the thought that we lost the election by doing many things that were right'.

    But people are now worried about another matter. It has turned out that failed policies have almost completely squandered the resources of the presidential fund. However, this was not news for David Narmanov, the Georgia Minister of Regional Development and Infrastructure. 'There is no doubting the fact that after the departure of the president there is almost nothing left of the fund. Saakashvili , who is prevented by the constitution to compete for a third term, has spent a lot of money lately', he said. 'The fund amounted to $ 6 million. Of that there is left ... about 3 thousand. All the money has been spent on Saakashvili's numerous trips abroad.'
    "

    What intrigues me, however, is that in the photograph accompanying the above linked KP article, the Washington lickspittle is wearing a Haig Fund "poppy". (See below)

    [​IMG]

    These paper tokens are worn this time of the year in the UK in order to commemorate the fallen in two world wars. The fund was founded by Earl Douglas Haig, one of the WWI British generals responsible for the mass slaughter of British troops on the Western Front of that "War to End Wars" - poppies bloom on the chalky downs of "Flanders Fields", where thousands of British and British Empire troops were mown down by German machine guns as they made repeated and fruitless frontal assaults against well entrenched enemy positions.

    "Remembrance Sunday" in the UK is that Sunday that falls nearest to November 11th. November 11th, 1918, was when the WWI fighting stopped in Western Europe.

    All British politicians and newscasters and the head of state will now be seen, together with millions of others in the UK, wearing such a "poppy" that the former Georgian president is shown wearing in the photograph above.

    I wonder where "Mickey" is intending to settle?
  16. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

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    The poppy (general throughout the Commonwealth actually - I bought mine yesterday) is interesting.. I think your guess will prove right -- Obama has not been a great friend of Saak but the UK is fast becoming a sink trap for all these "former democrats"
  17. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Berezovsky also sported a poppy when he appeared at the Royal Courts of Justice, London, in his case there versus Abramovich. I suppose he was trying to impress the judge and the British public. His floozy and his goons also wore poppies. Abramovich didn't.

    The judge wasn't impressed by Berezovsky, poppy notwithstanding: she called him in as many words an outright liar.

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2013
  18. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    The story that they laughed at in the West has now been given credence by Saakashvili.

    See: Саакашвили: Я сам просил Гиви Таргамадзе встречаться с российскими оппозиционерами (Saakashvili: I myself asked Targamadze to meet Russian oppositionists)

    The linked above KP story comes from this source: Che Guevara In The Caucasus

    "The film, Anatomy of a Protest 2, based its allegations on grainy hidden camera footage showing a purported meeting between Targamadze and four anti-capitalist Russian activists led by Left Front leader and opposition figurehead Sergei Udaltsov...

    "At first, Russian opposition figures laughed off the program...

    "Targamadze repeatedly denied to the Russian press that he so much as knew the activists and took the allegation in his stride, joking that he would be more than happy to meet them if the chance ever arose. The film itself was roundly denied and satirized by the Russian opposition, who called it too ridiculous to be true...

    "Now, however, Saakashvili and senior members in his United National Movement party have admitted for the first time to BuzzFeed that the story is partly true – and that Targamadze met the activists on the former president’s orders..."
  19. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

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    I am looking forward to more -- many more -- revelations. Big time crony corruption, active support for jihadists in North Caucasus, sudden convenient deaths, Sack the coke addict and so on.

    It will be interesting to see the reaction of his flacks in the USA.
  20. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

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    On the Targamadze matter, here is the original piece from Buzzfeed

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/maxseddon/che-guevara-in-the-caucasus

    Written in a curious style: hah hah silly Russians and their obsessions, but Targ did meet with the opposition. Hah hah silly Russians think Sack in bed with jihadists , but present Georgian govt talks about Lopata Gorge incident.
    Curious: half laughing at Moscow and half saying it's got a point.

    I'm always interested in how people walk themselves back from untenable positions without admitting they just plain got it wrong. Is this some new method? Keep the sneer up and pretend that the big points you're conceding are only little tiny ones?
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