The SYRIAN WAR Thread

Discussion in 'International Politics' started by AKarlin, May 6, 2013.

  1. Vostok

    Vostok Gubernial Secretary (12th class)

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    2
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    Nothing surprising or interesting about this, Russia and Germany are very close on Energy deals, the U.S going into Syria could potentially affect European Energy, which would be a loss for Russia and Germany.
  2. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    Germany and China are Russia's biggest trading partners.

    Germany is simply adhering to Bismarck's old dictum that the secret of German politics was to be pals with Russia, something that Kaiser Wilhelm II ignored after dismissing the Iron Chancellor from office.

    Alter Fritz ist nicht so dumm!
  3. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    Found this link today in the Guardian editorial readers' comments. Both make interesting reading.
  4. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    48
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ottawa
    For the first time in his adult life Obama is coming up against reality. He’s been sheltered from it by the affirmative action racket, the Chicago Machine and an obsequious media. He’s never before had to face the consequence of a lie or a casual remark.

    He is now.

    What’s going to happen?

    Mental collapse? pretend it didn’t happen? (worked well before but can get away with it this time?), change the subject? blame somebody? blow stuff up to show that he’s right?

    To me that’s the big question.

    Unfortunately, the rest of us are along for this drive through his psyche.
  5. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    I was watching Rasmussen, the Secretary General of NATO, being interviewed on the French news channel Euronews an hour ago.

    The tame interviewer made the usual leading statements ("You know that the Russian government supports the Syrian government, it supplies it with weapons; Russia has a naval base in Syria...") and the Secretary General replied that punitive action by the "international community" was in order because the "opposition" wouldn't have gassed its own people even if it had had the capability to deliver chemical weapons, which it hasn't, so Assad must have done it.

    No questions concerning why Assad would have used gas in a Damascus suburb against civilians, especially in view of the fact that he has the "opposition" beat and that the use of chemical weapons would give the Nobel Peace Prize winner reason to attack his "regime".



    The NATO Secretary General and friends:

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
  6. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    48
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ottawa
    A fool or a liar? Dunno.

    PS you too can make Sarin in your own kitchen (although you'll probably kill yourself doing so)

    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=better-killing-through-ch

    Aum Shinriko actually did.
  7. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    [​IMG]

    Would You Buy a Used Car From This Man?
  8. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    48
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Does anyone know what the truth behind Peskov's alleged retort that Britain small island nobody listens to" was? It gave Cameron the fantods (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23984730). But is there any reality to the statement at all? I can't believe that Peskov said it.
  9. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    48
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ottawa
  10. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    It's all reported as "allegedly" in the Russian media.

    See: "Россия насмехается над 'маленьким островом' Британнией"

    Translation:

    On the first day of the "Big Twenty"summit, relations between Russia and Britain deteriorated somewhat . The Daily Telegraph says that this happened after the BBC had reported a controversial statement allegedly made by spokesman for Vladimir Putin, Dmitry Peskov.

    Peskov is quoted as having said that Britain "is is just a small island, to which no one pays attention..." as well as joking about the fact that the Russian oligarchs had been buying up property in Chelsea and other areas of London .

    The newspaper noted that in an interview with the British prime minister, the BBC took his statements to be truthful, despite the fact that it was impossible to check them out.

    These statements, the newspaper notes, "have justified British fears that Russia will do its utmost to use the St. Petersburg summit to push around Cameron, who has spoken highly critically about Syria". The Daily Telegraph wrote that Peskov allegedly spoke to Russian reporters about the "diplomatic insignificance" of Britain in order to highlight the confusion that engulfed Cameron after the parliament of that country had rejected a plan for a military strike against Syria.

    However, the British prime minister has rejected the statement attributed Peskov. " Not for one second do I agree with that", the publication quotes him as saying. Cameron said that the UK will be one of the leaders in promoting peace plans for the conflict in Syria.


    End of translation

    This report, however, states that:

    "Peskov, for his part, has rejected the statement attributed to him, saying that it does not reflect the actual views of Russia as regards its 'positive' relationship with Britain."

    And this report says:

    "Meanwhile Peskov has denied the statements attributed to him, saying that they do not reflect the attitude of Moscow towards the UK. 'I cannot explain the origin of these allegations. They obviously do not have any relation to reality. I did not say this', said the spokesman for the Russian president."

    I believe Peskov and not that lying toe-rag Cameron.

    Well, I would, wouldn't I?

    :)
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
  11. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    Here's "Just-Call-Me-Dave" Dave next to the Evil One at the G-20 summit:

    [​IMG]

    The big-girl's blouse appears to be knocking back a vodka, whilst it looks like Satan Incarnate is thoughtfully sipping tea.

    That's a рюмочка (ryumochka) Dave's draining and they're рюмочки (ryumochki) on the tray behind of him - shorts glasses.

    Pity he didn't knock back a few more, then he might have got lippy with old Vova and would have had to be frogmarched out of the palace and told not to come back - ever.

    Dave after three toasts:

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
  12. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    At the great WWII meetings of Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill, they say that Stalin used to present the British PM with a crate of Armenian brandy to shut him up whilst the Great Leader got down to real business with Roosevelt, which latter thought he was on the same wave length as the Georgian - but he wasn't.

    Churchill just sulked and got pissed, I presume - not that many would have noticed.

    I must say, though, that Armenian brandy is a nice tipple.

    See: "The sustaining power of Armenia's historic brandy".
  13. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    48
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Wasn't there some other story of some terrible Russian insult to a Brit that no one ever reported actually hearing but nonetheless passed into folklore? (was it Lavrov telling someone to FO? -- doesn't sound like him)
  14. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    62
    Gender:
    Male
    I am fairly sure that the story of Peskov's comment about Britain is an invention of Cameron's spin doctors. Would Peskov really have said something like that in the middle of a diplomatic negotiation? Cameron went to the G20 summit feeling humiliated after the parliamentary vote of 10 days ago. I suspect he therefore got his aides to fabricate the story (1) to show to his parliamentary opponents what a false position they put him and by extension Britain in by their vote and (2) to enable Cameron to have a John of Gaunt/Henry V moment by waxing lyrical about Britain's greatness. The comments Cameron made look to me obviously rehearsed and largely inspired by certain comments made by the actor Hugh Grant in a film in which he was playing the part of a British Prime Minister standing up to a US President.

    If I am right about all of this (and of course I don't know I am) then the ploy backfired because it struck too close to home. The British really are very insecure about their position in the world. It is difficult to overstate the extraordinary outburst of angst Peskov's probably fictitious comment has triggered over here. There's been articles and editorials refuting it all over the place, which is a sure sign it's struck home.
  15. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    Yeah, there were allegations that Lavrov had said to Milliband, former UK Foreign Secretary, something like "Who the fuck are you to lecture me?" after the British foreign secretary had telephoned him in order to inform him that Her Majesty's Government thought Russia was a thoroughly bad egg for attacking poor little, sweet little Georgia in August 2008.

    The source for this story was an unnamed Russian foreign ministry informant and the stories got a good airing in the usual huffing and puffing British Tory rags, the Daily Mail and Daily Telegraph.

    However, RT reported that Milliband had denied Lavrov's using obscenities when addressing him on the telephone, though the Russian minister did use an obscenity when referring to Saakashvili, saying that a European colleague of his had described the Georgian president as a "fucking lunatic".

    For my part, as Foreign Minister (in exile) of the English Republic, I consider former foreign minister Milliband nothing but a jumped up little f*@#7ng sh*%it.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
    Robert likes this.
  16. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    62
    Gender:
    Male
    There's a massive US whipping operation going on at the moment to try to bully Washington's European allies into line. The Germans have just announced that they will sign up to the statement that the 11 other countries issued at the end of the G20 summit. However I don't think that really changes Germany's position at all. Not only did Germany not sign the declaration at the G20 summit itself, but it only did so after the EU foreign ministers issued their own response which appears to rule out EU support for military action. Over the course of day Caroline Ashton, reflecting the EU and by extension the German opposition, has apparently told Kerry that no action should be taken before the UN inspectors have issued their report.

    I come back to the suggestion I made before. I agree with what Patrick Armstrong says that Obama has got himself into a position where he is facing reality for the first time. He has only himself to blame for this by the way. However if he wants to retreat what he can do is let the UN inspectors provide their report to the Security Council. That report will doubtless confirm that chemical weapons were used (I don't think anybody realistically has any doubts about this). The Security Council would then be in a position to order a more detailed investigation to find out by whom and why. As I have said before the Russians and the Chinese have already suggested this (they have been suggesting this from the start). If Obama wants to get himself out of the hole he's dug himself into he could quietly agree to this whilst dressing it up for home consumption as his own initiative.
    Robert likes this.
  17. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    48
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ottawa
    Hugh Grant: the text "I fear that this has become a bad relationship. A relationship based on the President taking exactly what he wants and casually ignoring all those things that really matter to, erm... Britain. We may be a small country but we're a great one, too. The country of Shakespeare, Churchill, the Beatles, Sean Connery, Harry Potter. David Beckham's right foot. David Beckham's left foot, come to that. And a friend who bullies us is no longer a friend. And since bullies only respond to strength, from now onward, I will be prepared to be much stronger. And the President should be prepared for that."
    http://www.democraticunderground.co...mesg&forum=103&topic_id=130358&mesg_id=130360
    The scene


    One rather significant difference of course.....
  18. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    62
    Gender:
    Male
    Quite so and here is a rather more florid Cameron in St. Petersburg.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...efends-Britain-against-small-island-jibe.html

    It looks obvious rehearsed and pre prepared to me. I suppose what I should say is that whatever else Cameron is he is no Hugh Grant.
  19. MarkPavelovich

    MarkPavelovich Commissar

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    22
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Victoria, British Columbia
    Here is the origin of it, as nearly as I can make out. Although the reporter is on location in St Petersburg, he did not actually hear the comment and nobody is specifically cited as either having made it or having actually heard it said.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...3/Russia-mocks-Britain-the-little-island.html

    The strawman is a tried and true technique for steering the narrative in the direction a given authority desires it to go, and this strongly appears to be exactly that - a strawman carefully calculated to outrage Britons and make them forget what a floundering eejit their PM is. And, like many strawman initiatives before it, it has passed into the news-media lexicon just as if it actually had been said, although that possibility is very much analogous to "Assad's chemical-weapons attack", which is also now taken as a given. In the latter case, would it have made sense for Assad to have used a prohibited weapon which was widely advertised as the one thing the west would not tolerate, when he was already making steady gains toward military success without it? Cui bono? The fake rebels, of course; it would, and might, inspire a western military intervention. In the case of deliberately insulting and non-constructive remarks directed at Britain by Russia, why would Russia do such a thing? Has it a history of using carelessly provocative diplomatic language? On the contrary, it has shown admirable restraint in such trying circumstances as the passage of the self-serving Magnitsky Act, when the temptation to rage must have been great. And Britain, in this matter, is soundly beaten already and a spent force. Why would Russia use an expression of cheated wrath against an enemy already out of the reckoning? Cui bono? Cameron and his toadies, of course; it allowed Cameron to force Britain back into the spotlight and to remain vocal in the Syria debate even though his electorate has told him to sit down and shut up. You can be sure that if he qualified his approach as not believing Russia had actually made the remark, that he is sure they did not; if anyone had a record of it or even a witness who heard it said, Cameron would have been a-quiver with righteous fury. Instead, he adopted the theatrical pose of one who remains grim but courteous under almost unbearable insult, fighting hard to control his temper. I'm sure it's all an act and it was the Cameron team and their tame media who cooked up the entire premise.

    This, too, has something of the strawman in it, and seems a calculated effort to make Britons reconsider their rebuke of a good friend.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...fficers-left-out-of-US-meetings-on-Syria.html

    I don't know what ever contributed to such an impression, but senior military officers simply do not make such international decisions without orders. Do you believe there was a JCS decision - or even a presidential one - to exclude Britain from planning on Syria because it is "unreliable"? Just because your country has elected not to commit its own military forces does not mean your planners have no helpful suggestions, while Britain very likely has useful intelligence sources the United States has not and which would remain useful to the planning process. This, too, looks entirely like spin. Military leaders simply do not behave that way, and doing so would likely rule out any further military cooperation.
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2013
  20. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    62
    Gender:
    Male
    Here (thanks to Mike Averko) is an piece from Associated Press, which brings together all the problems about the intelligence upon which this attack on Syria is supposed to be based. Note that Associated Press is very much an establishment news agency and not one given to anti American conspiracy theories.

    http://news.yahoo.com/lingering-doubts-over-syria-gas-attack-evidence-072755287.html

    As has been pointed out by several people, the US actually provided more actual evidence to support its claims that there were WMD in Iraq prior to the 2003 war than the US is now doing to support its claim that it was the Syrian government that was responsible for the chemical weapons attack on 21st August 2013. Essentially what the US is saying is "trust us on this", whilst appearing baffled when no one does.

    Bild Zeitung also reports that the German intelligence agency has said that any chemical weapon attack on 21st August 2013 was carried out by the Syrian army was most probably carried out without Assad's knowledge or approval. A few weeks ago Kerry was saying that the Syrian government's responsibility for the gas attack was "undeniable". Quite obviously that is not the case.

    In the meantime there is talk from Kerry and Hollande of a return to the UN Security Council. This could of course simply be a tactical ploy to win over the doubters. Cameron tried it before the parliamentary vote, when it failed dismally. Or it might just possibly be the first sign of a retreat especially if it is true that feeling in the House of Respondents is hardening against an attack.

    PS: There's been some talk of Obama launching an attack even if the House of Representatives votes against. Whatever the legalities of this, I think such an action would be politically impossible. The whole idea of the attack is deeply unpopular with the US public already. It was Obama who decided to refer the case to Congress precisely because there is so much public opposition to the attack. If the vote in the House goes against an attack Obama would be politically crazy to order one. Not only might it actually start serious talk of impeachment proceedings but given how legally questionable an attack in such an eventuality would be I think Obama might run into serious resistance from parts of the US military if he gave such an order. Obama is many things but he is not crazy (even if some of those around him are).

    As I have repeatedly said, this incident cries out for proper investigation.

Share This Page