The "Anti-Gay Law" in Russia

Discussion in 'Russian Society' started by Moscow Exile, Aug 2, 2013.

  1. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

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    One assumes that the people who object to this law think that homosexual propaganda aimed at children is OK while those who approve of it don’t but have no problems with heterosexual propaganda aimed at children. It’s the kind of law that forbids something that isn’t happening very much and something that is already forbidden by other laws.
    But there are lots of laws like that these days: consider hate laws in the West. These are precisely the kind of laws that are twisted to fit political agendas.
    I suspect that the real reason for its passing is that the Russians are attempting to resist the Moral Imperialism that the West is now practising. The West regards itself as the cynosure of moral standards and, if you don’t agree with its condemnation of your behaviour, it may come and bomb you into acquiescence.
    Not a very edifying situation.
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  2. Philip Owen

    Philip Owen Office Registrar (13th class)

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    I think also, that there is a confusion between homosexuality and pederasty in Russia, which was common elsewhere 40 years ago.
  3. MarkPavelovich

    MarkPavelovich Commissar

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    The law does not forbid "homosexual pedophilia", as such. The explanatory notes attached to the law say that it shall be an administrative offense to portray homosexuality as a behavioral norm to minor children. You can still do anything you like as a gay adult with other gay adults provided it is not breaking some other law which has nothing to do with being gay, like speeding or selling drugs.

    However, having written and signed the law after due deliberation, the Russian government can hardly repeal it now. It would be a huge - and needless - joint victory for the international gay community and the meddling western busybodies who cannot keep their nose out of anything that has to do with Russia. I am afraid Russia is in for a huge rainbow celebration at Sochi no matter how it turns out - either in defiance of the law or in celebration that the government dares not enforce it.

    Perhaps the government ought to sit down with leading gay activists and make them aware that if they continue to force the issue, the law will indeed be repealed, with all the crow-eating by the government that must go with it. However, anyone who is arrested for the behavior described in the law will be charged and sentenced - if found guilty - as a pedophile.

    The point is well-taken that there was not a significant incidence of this activity in the first place, and the demand to "do something" very likely did come from conservative social elements - which is why I am surprised other countries, above all the United States are not more sympathetic. The United States government has to court and cavil to evangelical Christians in just the same way. Perhaps the law should not have been implemented, but now it is and if the government backs down on it all the movement from, here on will be retreat.
  4. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    I think this confusion between paederasty and homosexuality is understandable.

    All homosexuals are not paederasts.

    However, I think few would disagree with the statement that most, if not all, paederasts are homosexual.

    To restate what everyone who visits this site already knows: the "anti-Gay" law is not "anti-Gay" but against the promotion of homosexuality amongst minors.


    Returning to Peter Tatchell, who without any shadow of a doubt will be involved in this orchestrated Western campaign against Russia because of that state's alleged denial of "human rights" to its homosexual citizens, I should like to repeat the following questions posed to him a couple of years ago in response to one of his many Guardian "Comment Is Free" features:

    "Does Peter Tatchell still stand by what he wrote in a letter to the Guardian in 1997 in which he spoke of 'the positive nature of some child-adult sexual relations...'? 'Several of my friends', he continued, 'gay and straight, male and female had sex with adults from the ages of 9 to 13. None feel they were abused.'

    "Does he still stand by what he wrote in the book "Betrayal of Youth" (1986), in which he argued for the ending of the age of consent - at any age? The book was edited by a former leading light in the Paedophile Information Exchange. Not that I accuse Mr Tatchell of being a paedophile but he keeps strange company at times.

    "Does he believe in freedom of speech - if so why has he, on several occasions, interrupted public speeches and religious worship simply because he disagreed with the speaker in question?"

    (My apologies to the poser of the above quoted questions for not remembering his CiF pseudonym.)

    Tatchell had reminisced thus about his homosexual acquaintances in London and their 40-year struggle for their "human rights" in the Guardian CiF article that gave rise to the above questions: “Despite our differences, we shared a radical idealism – a dream of what the world could and should be – free from not just homophobia but the whole sex-shame culture, which oppressed straights as much as LGBTs.”

    Tatchell's belief that there exists a "sex-shame culture" raises the question from me, at least: Why shouldn't there be a sex-shame culture?

    Is Tatchell and those of a like mind saying there is no place for shame in society?

    Is Tatchell saying that shame is a societal invention? If so, where's his proof of this?

    Tatchell believes that the vast majority of people in human society is “oppressed” by “the whole sex-shame culture”. Isn't it really the case, however, that the only people who feel oppressed in this way are those who don't wish to conform to society's sexual norms, which, in turn, are based on individual norms?


    I suspect that a majority of folk don't want Tatchell & Co's forced “liberation”. However, I am pretty certain that if these sexual liberators had their way, they would make such “liberation” mandatory, and any dissent punishable by law.
  5. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Tatchell's letter of 26th June 1997 to the Guardian:

    ROS Coward (Why Dares to Speak says nothing useful, June 23) thinks it is “shocking” that Gay Men’s Press has published a book, Dares To Speak, which challenges the assumption that all sex involving children and adults is abusive. I think it is courageous.
    The distinguished psychologists and anthropologists cited in this book deserve to be heard. Offering a rational, informed perspective on sexual relations between younger and older people, they document examples of societies where consenting inter-generational sex is considered normal, beneficial and enjoyable by old and young alike.
    Prof Gilbert Herdt points to the Sambia tribe of Papua New Guinea, where all young boys have sex with older warriors as part of their initiation into manhood. Far from being harmed, Prof Herdt says the boys grow up to be happy, well-adjusted husbands and fathers.
    The positive nature of some child-adult sexual relationships is not confined to non-Western cultures. Several of my friends – gay and straight, male and female – had sex with adults from the ages of nine to 13. None feel they were abused. All say it was their conscious choice and gave them great joy.
    While it may be impossible to condone paedophilia, it is time society acknowledged the truth that not all sex involving children is unwanted, abusive and harmful.
    Peter Tatchell


    The Guardian later printed letters attacking Tatchell's comments. One, from Marjorie Orr of Accuracy About Abuse, pointed out that Joseph Geraci — one of the "distinguished" individuals involved in the book "Dares to Speak" — edited a Dutch pro-paedophilia journal called Paidika (1987-1995), subtitled "The Journal of Paedophilia". You can find a reference to it on the web on a site called boywiki.org.


    And Tatchell wonders why he is not welcome in the Evil Empire.

    On Saturday 16th May 2009, the Guardian published "Tatchell arrested while leading gay rights rally in Moscow".

    Tatchell now claims that as a result of the injuries he received in Moscow and elsewhere he is now suffering from minor permanent brain damage.
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2013
  6. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    I want to say something about the Culture War question.

    As should by now be obvious from my discussion with Jon Hellevig, I oppose this law. It does nothing in practical terms. It is purely declamatory in the worst sense. Declamatory laws represent in my strong opinion a misuse of law, which should never be used for such a purpose. It is intended to stigmatise a section of the population whose sexual behaviour is already unpopular but which is nonetheless legal.

    However I have no doubt that what has in large part at least provoked this law is the fixation some people in the west have with using Russia as territory for the west's own culture war. As I said during my discussion with Jon Hellevig, in my opinion we have Pussy Riot and their supporters largely to thank for the cultural backlash that has provoked this law. The whole Pussy Riot phenomenon would never have acquired the magnitude and effect it did had it not found a ready echo in the culture war in the west. For anyone who doubts that, just look at the very different response on the part of public opinion in the west to the Pussy Riot trial and to the Navalny trial.

    One utterly malign consequence of this is that people of gay sexual orientation in Russia are being conscripted without their knowledge or their wish as recruits into the west's culture war. To see that this is so consider the boycott of Russian products that has been launched in the west. The gay community in Russia, even its most militant and politicised members, never asked for it and overwhelmingly oppose it. What proves that this boycott is about the west's culture war and is not ultimately about Russia is the fact that those in the west who support the boycott nonetheless insist on going on with it even though the gay community in Russia never asked for it and opposes it if only because it knows it will make life more difficult for it.

    For the rest I agree with what Anatoly Karlin says that the dogmatic insistence of many in the west in celebrating the homosexual lifestyle is one which for whatever reason finds little or even no resonance in Russia. The one point I would make is that Russia here is not perhaps quite as much of an outlier even within European cultures as the graphs might make it seem to be. One only has to spend time in the west - even in "sophisticated" cities like London or Paris or San Francisco or New York - to know that there are a great many people in the west who are deeply uncomfortable with this phenomenon even if they are being deterred from expressing their feelings about it even to opinion pollsters.
  7. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

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    I think there is something simpler going on here.
    1. Putin has dissed Obama over Snowden. The “smartest man in the room”, the Nobel Prizewinner, the Chicago ward heeler is not going to let him get away with this. So, to use Kevin DuJan’s expression, he calls out one of the horcruxes on Putin. We have seen this pattern with Obama before: opponents are accused of racism, “war on women”, “homophobia” and so on. Putin is just the latest to get the treatment.
    2. There are a lot of stories that Obama & Co do not want to see reported: Benghazi, deficits, “Al Quaeda is on the run”, Fast and Furious, IRS used to suppress the opposition and so on and on. Generally they have been pretty successful at keeping the compliant news media under control. Creating other stories to fill up the space is one of the means used. This is another story to fill up some space.
    QED. Just a normal day’s work in Chicago on the Potomac.

    PS DuJan is worth reading I think and, as a homosexual from Chicago, he seems well-informed. This is the source of the horcrux illustration “One of the great horcruxes of the Left is the use of gays to attack conservatives and consistently claim Republicans are evil. Another horcrux is the Left’s abuse of black people, who are kept forever on reserve and ever at the ready to accuse conservatives of being RAAACIST! if the Left needs opposition blunted on anything. Jewish people form a third horcrux the Left depends on whenever accusing someone of being antisemitic will close debate and silence critics. We can continue this way through all sorts of ethnic, cultural, and other minorities, seeing how the Left pits each group against conservatives (and, often, against one minority or another) to get whatever the Left wants.”

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  8. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    "1. Putin has dissed Obama over Snowden. The “smartest man in the room”, the Nobel Prizewinner, the Chicago ward heeler is not going to let him get away with this. So, to use Kevin DuJan’s expression, he calls out one of the horcruxes on Putin. We have seen this pattern with Obama before: opponents are accused of racism, “war on women”, “homophobia” and so on. Putin is just the latest to get the treatment."

    That is a VERY interesting thought. It's a take on this I never thought of. It's quite clear that Obama and Putin anyway simply don't rub along. It's no secret that Obama wanted Medvedev to remain President and is uncomfortable with Putin.
  9. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Victory for homosexuals in Gryaz. See: GZT.RU

    In the Lipetsk region gays have a court decision in their favour

    Today the Gryaz City Court declared the refusal to register a same-sex marriage to be illegal

    Today the Gryaz City Court held a hearing in the civil case of St. Petersburg residents Dmitry Chunosova and Jaroslav Yevtushenko that challenge the refusal of a St. Petersburg registry office to accept their declaration of intent to marriage.

    Before starting the process, it turned out that in fact today in Gryaz were being heard two lawsuits made by supporters of same-sex love. 21-year-old Ilmira Shayhraznova and 23-year-old Elena Yakoleva had also tried to apply for a marriage in Moscow, but were refused and decided to challenge this in Gryaz, their registered place if residence.

    Today in Russia will be filed another lawsuit to ban same-sex marriage. It is expected that it will take place in a Moscow court.



    There was also was also awaiting Chunosova Yevtushenko another surprise at the Gryaz city court: paratroopers tried to get into the building, claiming that the both the legal action and the people that had submitted it were obnoxious. However, none of the paratroopers, who were celebrating Paratroopers Day, had no passport, and were not allowed into the court. 10 paratroopers remained outside in the street, where they intend to picket the court.
    The correspondent of portal Gorod48.ru has stated that at the end of the trial LGBT representatives called a taxi to the Gryaz court entrance.
    After Dmitry Chunosov, Jaroslav Yevtushenko, Ilmira Shayhraznova and Elena Yakoleva had got into a taxi, paratroopers near the court lunged at the car and tried to get the gays out.

    There was a brief skirmish between the paratroopers and gays until the police arrived in time. Dmitry Chunosov received a direct blow to the face before the car could get away from the place. However, Chunosov managed to tear off a chevron and symbols from a paratrooper’s sleeves. The Gryaz police did not detain any paratroopers.

    To recap: today the Gryaz City Court heard the case of Dmitry Chunosova and Jaroslav Yevtushenko that challenges the refusal of one of the St. Petersburg registry offices to accept their application for marriage. The Court declared actions of Petersburg registrar illegal.

    (Wonderful irony in the name of that city where the court decision was made!)
  10. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

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    All that will be reported of this will be the paratrooper thugs.

    I well remember the Para Day when I lived there -- a good day to stay indoors.
  11. SWSpires

    SWSpires Gubernial Secretary (12th class)

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    Well, hold on there...he appears to be something like a political gossip columnist, of the Wayne Madsen type. Spreading "Obama is gay" rumors is a big thing for him:

    http://hillbuzz.org/is-barack-obama-gay
  12. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    How not to engender support for one's cause amongst the lumpenproletariat and country shitkickers:

    [​IMG]

    The picture appeared on 24th July 2013 in a Guardian Comment is Free (what a laugh!!!) opinion piece entitled:"Russia should learn from Britain's record on gay rights".


    It seems that the Guardian sub-editorship has difficulties with the Russian language.
    Below the photograph are written the words: “Gay rights activists hold a banner reading ‘Homophobia – the religion of bullies’ in Red Square, Moscow”.
    That is not an accurate translation of what is written on the banner which literally translates as “Homophobia – the religion of cattle”, but colloquially, the word “cattle" in this instance alludes to people perceived as being from the lower social strata. Initially, the word was used contemptuously against the peasant masses.
    Perhaps that which is written on the banner would be better translated into colloquial English as “Homophobia – the religion of the sheeple”.
    Just the way not to engender popular support to one’s cause, I should think.
    But I forget! These demonstrators are “anti-regime”, are they not? That means they are members of the elite, the bourgeois, white-ribbon “intelligentsy” who hold the city lumpenproletariat and boorish country shitkickers in utter contempt.
    Bloody hell! How I wish I were as smart as they are!
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  13. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

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    Obama on Tonight Show transcript here
    http://hypervocal.com/news/2013/obama-leno/

    Leno asks this
    Q Well, something that shocked me about Russia — and I’m surprised this is not a huge story — suddenly, homosexuality is against the law. I mean, this seems like Germany: Let’s round up the Jews, let’s round up the gays, let’s round up the blacks. I mean, it starts with that. You round up people who you don’t
    — I mean, why is not more of the world outraged at this?

    Here’s another Hitler reference.
    “He is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews,” the British actor said in an open letter published on his website. Putin “cannot be allowed to get away with it.”
    http://en.rian.ru/sports/20130807/1...n-Olympics-Over-Putins-Anti-Gay-Policies.html
    This campaign is hardening fast.
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  14. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Enter stage left British thespian and “national institution” Stephen Fry with an open letter to the British prime minister and the International Olympic Committee calling for a ban on the Sochi Olympics in which he writes:

    “An absolute ban on the Russian Winter Olympics of 2014 on Sochi is simply essential. Stage them elsewhere in Utah, Lillyhammer, anywhere you like. At all costs Putin cannot be seen to have the approval of the civilised world.”

    Don’t forget, Fry has visited Russia and had a much publicised meeting there with an “anti-gay law" supporting member of the legislature, so he knows what he’s talking about when he says:

    “(Putin) is making scapegoats of gay people, just as Hitler did Jews. He cannot be allowed to get away with it … I am gay. I am a Jew. My mother lost over a dozen of her family to Hitler’s anti-Semitism.

    “Every time in Russia (and it is constantly) a gay teenager is forced into suicide, a lesbian ‘correctively’ raped, gay men and women beaten to death by neo-Nazi thugs while the Russian police stand idly by, the world is diminished and I for one, weep anew at seeing history repeat itself.”

    How many times has Fry actually visited Russia I wonder?

    How long has he stayed in the Evil Empire?

    If he wishes, next time he comes here, I’ll take him around the Moscow homosexual bars and clubs: there are plenty of them. And in their vicinity he won’t be stepping over the mangled corpses of brutally murdered homosexuals; he won’t be running the gauntlet of Neo-Nazis baying for his blood.

    He says the cops idly stand by whilst thugs murder homosexuals without let or hindrance. How does he know this? Where is his evidence?

    And he says Putin is making scapegoats of homosexuals: for what reason?

    Is there an economic crisis that Putin wishes to blame on them? Is there famine, disease, and poverty that stalk the land and from whose baleful presence Putin wishes to divert public attention by targeting homosexuals?

    Here’s a homosexual murder case that Fry must have missed, because it seems that the cops, in this instance, got their man, albeit rather belatedly:

    “A killer, nicknamed ‘the Monk’, who killed a homosexual, has been given an 8-year custodial sentence by Rovno City Court. It has taken law enforcement agencies 10 years to solve this crime and bring the case to court.

    “However, the convicted man claims he did not kill intentionally and said he had been defending himself against the sexual harassment of a Rovno driving school instructor, Anatoly Skorokho.

    “The murder took place in 1998. Law enforcement officers believe it was a so-called ‘grudge’ crime. The killer then disappeared, leaving behind in one of the Rovno apartments the corpse of its 50-year-old owner. The police found a note that read: ‘He wanted to rape me. The Monk’ and a bloody handprint in the bathroom.”

    If you should like to read more, I found the story here in “Gay Ukraine”.

    Well, alright then! Fry was complaining about the treatment that he believes is meeted out in Russia against homosexuals, but it’s near enough.

    You might find the same or similar story in this Russian magazine called “Квир”, pronounced “kveer” – geddit?

    And guess what? It ain’t banned and you don’t have to have it furtively delivered to your home in a plain brown envelope.

    Now how can that be?
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  15. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Dear Patrick,

    I have come round to your view that the campaign that is being whipped up around the law started and continues to be orchestrated by the Obama White House out of pique with the Snowden asylum decision. Criticising Russia over its grant of asylum to Snowden is poor politics since most people agree with what Russia has done and it makes the US seem like a bully. Starting up a firestorm over this law is the answer to this.

    I would just say

    1. That in debating societies here in Britain it is an iron rule that anyone who invokes the Nazis in support of his argument has lost the debate. Here we have a classic example. Gays in Russia = Jews in Nazi Germany! Really? The parallel is grotesque. I wonder how long it will be before Jews start to protest about it.

    2. Precisely because the campaign is ultimately scaremongering I predict this campaign will be difficult to sustain over the long term however much fire and thunder it generates now.
  16. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

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    Godwin's Law
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

    Especially this corollary
    For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever debate was in progress.
  17. Drutten

    Drutten Collegiate Secretary (10th class)

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    It is quite unbelievable how it can escalate like this, and so far from the actual truth too.

    It really does seem more and more like a way of "getting back" at Russia over the Snowden and Syria affairs without directly invoking said topics as many are now suggesting. It's funny how much in international affairs is tainted by relatively petty grudges, a global playground that at times seems to have more in common with gossiping high school girls than what you'd expect (perhaps naively so) from eloquent suit-bearers. :) Lovely.

    The bitter irony of it all is that this (calls for boycotts, diplomatic protests etc) doesn't seem to do anything but to worsen the situation for LGBT people in Russia.

    As far as I've understood things, Russia is not ready for and does not want huge Pride parades and such at present. This is the general grassroots sentiment, be it "homophobic" or what have you. But I also understand that the Russian LGBT community did enjoy a gradual increase of overall social acceptance post-USSR until what, Putins second term ended and Medvedev took over. That is what various polls, the cropping up of LGBT bars in the metropolises etc. over these years suggest.

    Then came the drop, and why was that? I highly doubt it has anything to do with the Kremlin, and I don't think the Russian Orthodox church is to blame either. What it seems like to me is that people were in fact increasingly content with simply accepting the phenomenon (as available data suggests) but that the ever louder calls for dedicated homosexual festivities and such made the general public change their minds about it. In other words, it became a bit too much a bit too soon. This ongoing outcry only appears to bolster this, impeding and/or reversing any progress on the matter, all this because of a law that is not even relevant to actual LGBT rights.

    Am I somewhat correct in this assessment, you guys reckon? I read something similar elsewhere and it really matches the course and nature of events quite nicely (with the caveat that correlation does not necessarily imply causation).
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  18. Drutten

    Drutten Collegiate Secretary (10th class)

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    I'm sorry -- I now realize I'm pretty much only repeating what has already been said in a parrot-like fashion. This "something similar elsewhere" was right here, and my version of it did not sound nearly as thought-through either.

    Well, vodka and vacation sure is something. :) Good night, folks.
  19. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Speaking for myself I thought it a fine post.

    I agree by the way that the Kremlin was not behind this law. I am afraid I think the Orthodox Church did play a role in it. However overall I think your analysis sound.

    There is no doubt that there is strong homophobic prejudice within Russian society. However male homosexual acts were decriminalised in 1993 and overall the trend was inching towards greater tolerance. Unfortunately some gay activists egged on by people in the west pushed the boundaries too hard and provoked a backlash. I would add what I have said before, that the Pussy Riot affair (not so much the incident in the Cathedral itself as the hysterical campaign whipped up around it and the subsequent trial) played a big part in strengthening and even provoking this backlash. The law is the result.

    The important thing now is for everyone to calm down and disengage in which case in time the backlash will run its course and things will get back to where they were before. I doubt that Russia will ever become as accepting of homosexual activity as some parts of the west are (though one never knows) but like Jon Hellevig I believe Russians are generally rational and tolerant people and provided gay people do not go about being unnecessarily provocative there is no reason why they should not be able to go quietly about their lives.

    I also agree with your point that all the current campaign against the law is going to do is make the condition of LGBT people in Russia more difficult than it already is and prolong the backlash that has caused this law.
  20. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

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    I missed this the first time around in Obama's answer to Leno:

    And if Russia wants to uphold the Olympic spirit, then every judgment should be made on the track, or in the swimming pool, or on the balance beam, and people’s sexual orientation shouldn’t have anything to do with it

    Also
    If we don’t deepen our ports all along the Gulf — places like Charleston, South Carolina, or Savannah, Georgia, or Jacksonville, Florida

    He should have brought TOTUS with him

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