The "Anti-Gay Law" in Russia

Discussion in 'Russian Society' started by Moscow Exile, Aug 2, 2013.

  1. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    On the Snowden-Tug-of-War thread, Drutten stated that he would like to see a discussion here about "this 'anti-gay' law and all the 'crackdown' stuff", so here goes...

    Firstly, in order to get the ball rolling, here's what RT posted today in an article entitled: "Gay rights in Russia: Facts and Myths".

    Let battle commence!
  2. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    Here's what I posted earlier this week on Kremlin Stooge:

    “Adult, consensual and non-commercial homosexuality has been legal in the mainland PRC since 1997, when the national penal code was revised. Homosexuality was removed from the Ministry of Health’s list of mental illnesses in 2001 and the public health campaign against AIDS-HIV pandemic does include education for men who have sex with men. Officially, overt police harassment of gay people is restricted to gay people engaging in gay sex acts in public or gay prostitution, which are also illegal for heterosexuals.


    However, despite these changes, no civil rights law exists to address discrimination or harassment on the basis of sexual orientation or gender identity. The media tends to censor positive depictions of gay couples in films and television shows and households headed by same-sex couples are not permitted to adopt children and do not have the same rights as heterosexual married couples.”
    From Wiki: “Homosexuality in China”
    So I take it that it is highly likely that a worldwide ban by homosexuals on Chinese products is in the offing?
    “LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia are unrecognized. Homosexuality is frequently a taboo subject in Saudi Arabian society and is punished with imprisonment, corporal punishment and capital punishment. Transgenderism is generally associated with homosexuality.”
    From Wiki: “LGBT rights in Saudi Arabia”
    U.S. Imports from Saudi Arabia of Crude Oil and Petroleum Products
    Do you think there’s any likelihood of LGBT agitators pressurizing for a worldwide boycott on Saudi oil imports, and if not, then why not?
    Carlo likes this.
  3. MarkPavelovich

    MarkPavelovich Commissar

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    22
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Victoria, British Columbia
    "Gay activists claim there has been a sharp spike in violence against homosexuals in the past few weeks, saying that the new law gives homophobic gangs carte blanche to attack conspicuously-gay individuals, in the name of “upholding the law”. But exact numbers are impossible to collect reliably".

    Well, of course - what do you expect gay activists to say? They don't like the law, so therefore the law is to blame. However, the new law DOES NOT, repeat, DOES NOT, discriminate against anyone for being gay. In fact, the explanatory notes are at pains to clarify that no administrative penalty accrues to anyone for being gay regardless how conspicuous that state may be, but only for their peddling the gay lifestyle to minor children as a "behavioral norm". Which it is not. I personally believe it is harmless and that it is wrong to discriminate against gay people because they are gay, but there is a world of difference between homosexuality being a behavior which is tolerated and one which is normal. If homosexuality was normal, there would be only one sex. Furthermore, those who have rights also have responsibilities, and one of them is to behave with decorum in public.

    My post on the subject is almost complete and will hopefully be out today, and I will be in a better position to comment on it further then. But nobody who attacks adult gays simply for being conspicuously gay has the backing of the law, and homosexuality was legal in Russia and all its environs for 10 years before it was legal in the USA.

    It is far more likely that their peers are angry with gays for focusing unwelcome negative attention on Russia for an issue those peers feel is actually a non-issue, and the aim seems to me plainly to be to promote a conflict in Russia as punishment for Snowden. This seems to be borne out in the plea delivered by Latvia's LGBT community that the world not boycott Stolichnaya, because it is only peripherally Russian at all, and because such a boycott would inspire angry retaliation against the fragile Latvian gay community.

    http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/...u’ve-got-wrong-country-say-gay-latvians010813
  4. Philip Owen

    Philip Owen Office Registrar (13th class)

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    10
    Gender:
    Male
    Russia is the campaign target because Peter Tatchell has some kind of long term connection with Russia and also perhaps the usual thing that Russia is judged by European standards whereas China, Saudi et al are so alien as to be beyond redemption.
  5. MarkPavelovich

    MarkPavelovich Commissar

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2013
    Messages:
    146
    Likes Received:
    22
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Victoria, British Columbia
    That would indeed be a worthy goal, were the western "usual suspects" - the USA, the UK and occasionally Canada following along to hold America's coat while it thrashes someone - remotely interested in redemption for Russia. They are not; it is much more useful as a constant target for criticism and ridicule, and a sometime distraction when there is something politically uncomfortable going on at home, as Patrick has pointed out.

    There is something to the notion that Russia is judged differently because Russians are mostly a white race which looks European, and it causes fits among western policymakers that it will not acknowledge its envy of the United States and Europe (which it must feel, because everyone does). If it would only kneel - as it almost did under Yeltsin, as much from weakness as a desire to offer fealty - the west would be mollified and perhaps cut it some slack. The receiving of querulous western complaints with sardonic amusement causes the west to grind its teeth until they pop.

    Peter Tatchell is an irritating twit who seems to sweat hyperbole; he can't describe anything about Russia without resorting to superlatives of horribleness. The new "anti-gay law", now, is a great example - according to Tatchell, it "is one of the most draconian laws against LGBT freedom of expression anywhere in the world and a further reversal of the liberalisation of the early 1990s, when homosexuality was decriminalised in Russia. Not since the days of Stalin have LGBT Russians experienced such repressive legal measures."

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/peter-g-tatchell/russian-gay-propaganda_b_3428829.html

    Did you see the stories about Italian cities dumping their "twin cities" relationships with Russian cities in protest? Milan, Turin and Venice all did so - how heroic. But Milan kept its comfy twin arrangement with Dakar, where any public same-sex activity is punishable by 1 to 5 years imprisonment, while Turin and Venice maintained twin relationships with cities in Iran, where same-sex activity is punishable by death. Death, Peter, you spavined serial-exaggerator nit - how's that for "draconian" and "repressive"? So much of what these human-rights moaners say is just knee-jerk catechism that I doubt Peter Tatchell could report on the opening of a pancake house in Moscow without mentioning Stalin.

    He also affects to believe that " it will criminalise any public advocacy of LGBT equality or expression of same-sex affection where a young person could potentially see or hear it." Do you really think so, Peter, in a country where same-sex activity was legal for 10 years before it was in the USA? Do you think young people are completely unaware of same-sex relationships, and that they have never seen two girls holding hands? If you're arguing for the right of homosexuals to snog and fondle each other in public, that's a different thing altogether, isn't it? Why should homosexuals be the only group that need not observe decorum? Is that cool when 80-year-olds do it?

    The law specifically says in the explanatory notes that no administrative action may be taken against a person for simply being gay. It certainly will criminalize public advocacy of homosexuality as a behavioral norm when pitched to minors, which is children under the age of 16, because that's exactly what the law says. Is that a lie, Peter? Is homosexuality normal? I'm not talking about whether it's sick or whether it should be outlawed, because I accept some people are compelled to it and they should not suffer for it. But tolerance and acceptance are a far cry from acknowledging it as normal, because it is not.
  6. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    Tatchell is exactly a case in point about which the so-called Russian anti-Gay legislation is directed.

    Upon his arrival in the UK from Australia, Tatchell, on his own admittance, found himself a catamite. He cohabited with an underage (16), homosexual partner in London. The fact that Tatchell practices homosexual acts with willing adult partners was then, as now it is now, not illegal in the UK; however, the fact that the person whom Tatchell was once sodomizing opon his arrival in London, albeit that person was a willing partner, was under 18 years of age, made the homosexual acts that they performed illegal.

    Tatchell has long been at the forefront for lowering the age of consent for those who are willing to participate in homosexual acts. He believes that it is discriminatory against homosexuals that the age of consent for heterosexual acts in the UK is 16, whereas consenting homosexuals were then only legally allowed to do what they like doing when they are 18 years of age and older. (Perhaps the age of homosexual consent has been lowered since I last lived in the UK.)

    Tatchell has also not retracted what he said about his belief that very young people should be legally allowed to participate in sexual acts if that is what they want. In this respect, Tatchell is akin to former European anarcho-socialist hero, Daniel Cohen-Bendit, aka Danny the Red, one of the leading lights of the 1968 European "students revolution".

    Cohen-Bendit, by the way, has dual German/French citizenship. (His parents fled to France from anti-Semitic Germany in the 1930s.) Last I heard, Cohen-Bendit had become a member of the German Green Party, having eschewed his earlier revolutionary zeal, and is now a typical German "Kleinbürger" deputy for that party in the Bundestag. However, whisperings about his past and his advocacy then for legalizing sexual relations with children, occasionally become more voluble. Cohen-Bendit denies he ever promoted paederasty, but there is evidence enough in what he wrote that he did.

    I remember well how Tatchell and his associates were arrested in London for persistently hanging around schoolyard gates, where they distributed leaflets concerning homosexuality and how to fight against discrimination against it and how to "come out" and who to contact in order to receive support in order to do all of this.

    The charge used against Tatchell and friends is the vague one in English law that concerns the "corruption of minors". (How does one define "corruption"?)

    I don't know whether such a specific charge exists in Russia. However, if Tatchell attempted to do in Russia what he did outside schools in London, he most definitely would be charged under the present Russian "anti-Gay" law that proscribes propagandizing homosexuality.

    Tatchell made several forays into the Evil Empire during the time when Lyzhkov was mayor of Moscow in order to participate in "Gay Pride" marches in the Russian capital, albeit that such marches had been forbidden. No doubt Lyzhkov's foolish description of Gay activism as being the work of the devil was a challenge that Tatchell could not turn down. After his having been arrested at the last attempt at forcing a Gay parade onto unwilling Muscovites, Tatchell returned to the UK, where there was immediately published in the Guardian his account of the traumatic experience that he had suffered and the horrors that he had witnessed in Mordor. As usual, he reported the "brutality" of the police and the beating of protestors to a "pulp". He also claimed that he was beaten after his arrest. (The beating of people to a pulp or the claim that one had been beaten to a pulp are quite common in the Guardian, which often leads me to doubt that those who use such expressions have ever really seen anybody being brutally and cruelly and sadistically beaten: those who have been "beaten to a pulp" usually wake up in hospital - if they ever wake up at all.) In fact, at the Moscow (non-)event that Tatchell wrote of in the Grauniad, the police acted swiftly and efficiently as soon as the handful of homosexuals, both Russian and their supporters from Europe, refused to disperse and before any parade took place.

    Of course, Tatchell is a darling of the Guardianistas, who believe that the whole world should be as "liberal" as they, and that those that disagree with them are "backward", "reactionary", "fascist" and so on: in other words, Guardianistas and their ilk constitute a moral minority who are always right.

    In short, all this antagonism between the West and Russia is yet another symptom of that which Anatoly Karlin has labelled as a "Culture War", whose features have been described by him on his Da Russophile site.
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2013
  7. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
    Here's a story that might be open to different interpretations:

    Yesterday, August 2nd, was Paratrooper Day in Russia. Paratroopers are much respected in the Evil Empire. More accurately, Russian paratroopers believe that they are/should be much respected by their fellow citizens. So on Paratrooper Day former and active "Blue Berets" gather in Russian towns and cities to have some "fun", which for them means that they get drunk, fight, make a nuisance of themselves etc. because the nation loves them, or they think it does.

    In Moscow they head for Gorky Park and dance around in the fountains there, and drink vodka straight from the bottle, resulting in many of them remaining there in a comatose state.

    I think their behaviour is objectionable and also thoroughly unwarranted. The police, however, mostly turn a blind eye to this mass hooliganism perpetrated by grown men who are/were members of a so-called disciplined unit. Nevertheless, the overjoyed paratroopers sometimes go too far and arrests are made: a couple of years ago the knives came out in a paratrooper bar brawl and one of them died. The bar brawl was between paratroopers by the way.

    Here's what Yalensis, a contributor to the Kremlin Stooge site has posted today:

    "So, yesterday a very brave, but very foolish gay activist named Kirill Kalugin did a one-man gay rights protest in Petersburg. He had previously alerted both media and police as to his intentions. Kalugin unfurled his gay rights flag and started to give a speech about homophobia. A girl from a “nationalist” group ran up and tore away his flag. Next Kalugin was attached by a group of at least 20 paratroopers. They took him down, beat him up, and were going to really work him over; fortunately, Kalugin was rescued by the police. Cops managed to pry Kalugin out of the hands of the lynch mob and get him into a police car.

    "This turned into a huge donnybrook, with paratrooper vs. OMON, paratroopers also attacking reporters Police won the battle and arrested a bunch of drunken paratroopers."

    Note: the police were protecting the homosexual from criminally behaving paratrooper "homophobes".

    The homosexual was breaking no law and was simply exercising his right to free speech. He was not propagandizing homosexuality to minors: he was protesting about intolerance towards a section of society because of that section's sexual predeliction.

    Unfortunately, he chose, whether accidentally or intentionally, to make his protest on Paratrooper Day. Perhaps he wanted to be a martyr to the "Gay Rights" cause?

    The result was that drunken paratroopers no doubt perceived this to be a provocation as regards their mascunility and felt that they had a right to assault the homosexual because of this.

    They were wrong about their rights and were accordingly and with great difficulty arrested.

    If this story should reach the West, I am sure that it will be reported as yet another example of the outrageous "homophobia" that exists in Russia and gloss over the fact that the assault was undertaken by a gang of very drunken hooligan adults who acted criminally and for which criminal act they were duly arrested.
  8. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    373
    Likes Received:
    55
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Moscow, Russia
  9. Robert

    Robert Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    28
    Likes Received:
    1
    Gender:
    Male
    Tatchell stood as a Labour candidate in the London constituency of Bermondsey in the early Eighties. He made no secret of his homosexuality and this didn't go down well with the conservative working class voters of Bermondsey. There was graffiti springing up across the area saying "Tatchell is a communist pouf" His opponent, the Liberal Simon Hughes fought a dirty campaign against Tatchell with Liberal leaflets describing Hughes as "the straight candidate" Later it turned out Hughes was gay himself.

    The change in attitudes in Britain towards gay rights in my lifetime has been extraordinary. We now have gay marriage in England and Wales. But Russia is probably no more homophobic than Britain was in the Seventies and early Eighties.
  10. AKarlin

    AKarlin Generalissimo Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    39
    Here is an interesting graph. In a way, Russia is a really big outlier - together with China - on the homosexuality question when adjusted for secularism levels.

    [​IMG]
    royotoyo likes this.
  11. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

    Joined:
    May 7, 2013
    Messages:
    220
    Likes Received:
    48
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Ottawa
    And let us not forget that up to about 1972/3 HS was regarded by the official US psychiatric community as a disorder of some sort. And I think years after that by the WHO.
    I agree, Russia's a few decades back there.
    And I suspect on a lot of other subjects too. My guess is that a lot of Russians look at the West and think "decadence".
  12. AKarlin

    AKarlin Generalissimo Staff Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2013
    Messages:
    163
    Likes Received:
    39

    The way I look at it is that in Russia - as in much of the rest of the socialist bloc, inc. China - *real* Marxism "shielded" those societies (so to speak) from what is known as cultural Marxism.

    It is striking that along with the 1970s-like attitudes to homosexuality, gender feminism (as opposed to equity feminism - a very important difference) has likewise made little to no imprint on those societies. Gender feminism denies and indeed aggressively attacks the traditional outlook on male and female sexuality; it treats men and women as not so much equal (as in equity feminism - which I fully support) as interchangeable units (which is specific to gender feminism).

    As such, it naturally ties in with public celebration of the homosexual lifestyle. Man with woman, man with man, woman with woman, what's the difference if there's no difference?

    Russians don't think that way. There, a man is still a man, and a woman is a woman, with their respective spheres of legitimate influence. Gay men as of 1993 are free to ignore this social contract in their private lives, but they are expected to at least passively subscribe to it publicly. This is why the growing calls to allow pride marches and the spectacle of gay marriage in the West have been so culturally shocking to Russians; it totally goes against the established culture of values that has predominated since c.1930. No wonder, then, the vigorous reaction against "homosexual propaganda" that reached a boiling point this year.
  13. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    62
    Gender:
    Male
    From Jon Hellevig:

    I just wanted to share with you an observation on a thing that really bothers me.

    Russia enacted this strange law on prohibition of gay propaganda.

    Many problems with this. What is propaganda, has not been defined. – I think they could start with prohibiting propaganda!

    What this law means is anybody’s guess. But what is clear is that it is a paper tiger. Most probably it is meant solely to appease the value-conservative electorate sending a message that “something gay related is bad”. But unfortunately it sends a totally different message to the world. There it reads “something Russian related is bad”.

    Russia has no laws that discriminate against gays and this is a very tolerant society, then why open oneself to the wound of allowing the western propaganda machine to blow up this anti-gay story.


    I write because we do recruitment services for a lot of international hotels in Sochi for the Olympics and executives for international hotel chains write to me and say they are scared to send their people there (you know the hospitality business) because they read in the “trusted press” that gays are prosecuted and sent to jail in Russia.

    I rarely think that Putin makes mistakes but this smoke and screens anti-gay propaganda law is really low. It is an anti-Russian law!
  14. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    62
    Gender:
    Male
    Alexander Mercouris in reply to Jon Hellevig:

    I am glad to see you write this because once again what you say corresponds with my views.

    In criminal law terms this law is valueless since the sort of things that its promoters claim to object to (gay propaganda directed at children) did not appear to be happening on any significant scale before the law was passed and would presumably be unlawful anyway without this law if it did. There is never any point in passing a law to outlaw behaviour that is not happening at least on any significant scale and which would be already illegal if it did. I have also argued previously elsewhere that the true purpose of the authors of this law (including I am sorry to say the Orthodox Church) is surely to stigmatise further Russia's gay community, who are unpopular already, and their lifestyle, which though also unpopular is according to Russian law in itself legal. I have also argued elsewhere that we have Pussy Riot and their supporters in large part to thank for all this since this law is surely in part at least a product of the conservative cultural backlash that the "punk prayer" in the Cathedral of Christ the Saviour and their other antics and the campaign in support of them have unleashed.

    Having said this there are two points I want to make:

    1. Given that it is a bare 20 years since male homosexual activity in Russia was decriminalised I think the very aggressive behaviour of some of the more extreme elements of Russia's gay community has been unwise to say the least. I agree that in most respects Russia is a tolerant society. The gay community in Russia should build on that and not be needlessly provocative. I think what the gay community in Russia needs to do is not flaunt its lifestyle in the face of conservative opinion through provocative gay pride marches and the like but work quietly with the authorities and with society to change attitudes by dealing with ignorance and prejudice when they come across it. That was actually how change was effected in the west and I see no reason why Russia should be different.

    2. The response of some members of the western gay community to this law is equally misguided. To a Briton all this trouble with this law is drearily familiar. In the 1980s the Thatcher government passed a law very similar in intention to the Russian law, which remained in force until as recently as 2003. It too aimed to prevent gay propaganda directed at children. It was not exactly the same as the Russian law since (1) it was specifically targeted at local authorities, which in Britain administer the school system and (2) it did not impose any criminal sanctions as I believe the Russian law does. However the purpose of the law and some of its language were eerily similar to the Russian law.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_28

    The law was controversial and bitterly opposed by Britain's powerful gay community. However just as you say in reality it proved something of a paper tiger. Moreover I never heard of anyone proposing that Britain be boycotted because of it. Specifically I don't remember irate gay friendly American barmen pouring expensive Scotch whisky down the sewers to protest against the rampant homophobia of British society or the anti gay policies of the British government illustrated by this law. Behaving in this needlessly aggressive way will make defending the law for some Russians a patriotic issue and risks entrenching it whilst it also strengthens the identification in Russia of people with gay sexual orientations as pro western, which in the current climate is by no means a good idea. If left alone Russian social attitudes will evolve by themselves as they did in Britain and it will be Russians of their own accord who will then decide to get rid of this law as and when they want to and feel able to in the same way that the British did.

    For the rest, I am sorry this is causing you problems. Once again Russia has shot itself in the foot in presentational terms doing something both stupid and unnecessary in order to appease a conservative segment of its society that was needlessly provoked by the Pussy Riot affair but whose size and influence should nonetheless not be exaggerated. If only people would debate this question in a reasonable way that would become clear.
  15. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    62
    Gender:
    Male
    From Jon Hellevig:

    Alexander, yes we are turning in to a “club of mutual promotion” (which we used to say in Finland when points converse). Thanks for filling in what I missed in my message that the law prohibits propaganda directed to “minors” which is already a crime by general law as pedophile.

    Thanks for sharing the UK experience.

    We are dealing here with a phenomenon which is close to coming within the concept of “power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely”. It is stupid of United Russia to use its power to pass such laws that are aimed totally for, yes, propaganda purposes themselves. They should have the wisdom of refraining from narrow partisan politics in abuse of their power and really promote the issues that are dearly needed in the country.

    Of course you can ignore the world opinion (and domestic minority) if that is what you want to do. But I think a snowden-friendly policy is to be recommended, a policy of showing that Russia is the real free world (which it genuinely is, in my experience). That will bring geopolitical and economic gains. – You do not need to allow gay weddings and all that hype but don’t portray yourself as a muslim dictatorship
  16. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    62
    Gender:
    Male
    From Jon Hellevig:

    Analyzing this issue, it turns out that the Russian lawmaker has prohibited ”gay pedophile propaganda”. This is very curious as it turns out that hetero-pedophile propaganda then stays under special protection of the government. And certainly there are in the world more cases of hetero-pedophilism than the gay variant.
  17. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    62
    Gender:
    Male
    From Alexander Mercouris in reply to Jon Hellevig:

    Thanks for this Jon.

    It is as you said, utterly ridiculous. If "homosexual paedophile propaganda" is forbidden does that mean "heterosexual paedophile propaganda" is permitted? I presume not! If not then what is the point of this law?

    Incidentally if you can explain to me what in Russian law an "administrative offence" is I would be very grateful. I presume it is a minor offence outside the Russian Criminal Code, which is punished purely by a fine but I am not sure about this. Are "administrative offences" administered by the Courts or are they enforced by some non Court agency eg. the procuracy?

    In Britain the distinction we make is between "indictable offences" and "summary offences". Indictable offences are the more serious offences which are tried in a Court with a jury. They always come with a term of imprisonment. Summary offences are tried before a Magistrate. They are mostly punished with a fine but sometimes a prison term can be imposed though for never more than 6 months. Confusingly some offences (eg. some public order offences) can be either indictable or summary (they are called "either/or" offences) depending on how serious their consequences are. I don't know whether the distinction Russian law makes between "administrative offences" and other offences is the same or similar.
  18. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    62
    Gender:
    Male
    From Jon Hellevig:

    In Britain the distinction we make is between "indictable offences" and "summary offences".
    - This is a very good parallel.
    - This touches another more serious issue. In Russia they have this whole code of Administrative Offences which is actually a codification of bureaucracy. The whole idea of administrative offences is a relic from the Soviet Union. An expression of the state controlling everything. In Finland, for example, we have something similar only for traffic offences. But in Russia one can be meted out such sanctions for all kinds of things, for example, for the offence of a CEO not duly signing a Labor Book, another relic from Soviet area. – In my opinion there should be only criminalized acts or non-criminalized and then civil suits.
    - From the positive side it is good they are anyway “administrative offences” only and not crimes.
    - You got my provocative point - If "homosexual paedophile propaganda" is forbidden does that mean "heterosexual paedophile propaganda" is permitted? I presume not! If not then what is the point of this law? All that is achieved by this is appeasing the value-conservatives and hampering Russia’s global image. As if more would be needed for it.
    - Laws should not be made for propaganda purposes as the one we are discussing was
    - Very sad that Russia has opened itself to a lot of bad will and opportunities for the Western propaganda to jump on, for nothing
    - For clarity, I am not advocating gay marriages or any of that hype, I just think Russia should a little bit care for its global image. After all Russia is not so strong that it could totally ignore it. Even Cuba is doing more in this respect. - Russia wants to diversify its economy and integrate in global business and these things do not help it.
    - There is no time for the Western propaganda to mount a campaign to boycott the Olympics but a lot of time to go for the Football Championships 2018
    - After all Russia wants to organize these kind of events precisely to be attractive
    - Therefore, I as one that cares for Russia wanted to bring up this point

  19. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

    Joined:
    May 5, 2013
    Messages:
    189
    Likes Received:
    62
    Gender:
    Male
    From Alexander Mercouris in reply to Jon Hellevig:

    We are indeed becoming a mutual agreement society.

    Thanks for clarifying the point about "administrative offences". I totally agree with what you say about them. Either something is an offence or it is not. In fact I would go further and say that this (so Soviet - as you say) concept of "administrative offences" comes close to violating the principle that what is not expressly forbidden by the law is permitted. If some of the things that are now "administrative offences" are things that ought to be forbidden then they should be proper offences not administrative ones.

    Of course the problem is that in the USSR the bureaucracy ultimately made the law. Even the country's Parliament of that time - the Supreme Soviet - was essentially a bureaucratic and not a parliamentary body as we understand the term . In the light of this it is not surprising that we have a legacy of such anomalous concepts as "administrative offences".

    For the rest I totally agree with what you say about the law that has just been passed. The only thing I would say is that I doubt that any of the forthcoming sporting events will actually in the end be boycotted. I think forcing the various sports bodies to agree or accept boycotts would be well nigh impossible. The US Olympic Committee has already said that it opposes the suggestion of a boycott of the Sochi Olympics and has made the point that the boycott of the 1980 Moscow Olympics was a mistake because it did not change Soviet policy but merely hurt the athletes who were effected by the boycott. It is very unusual in my experience for any American establishment institution to admit the US made a mistake and I think this shows how strongly feeling in the sports world on the subject of boycotts now is. Having said that, the fact that we are talking about boycotts at all shows how foolish in presentational terms this law is. Given that as we have established, in practical terms it does precisely nothing, the country is paying a heavy price to appease a conservative minority that arguably ought to be confronted on this issue rather than appeased.
  20. Philip Owen

    Philip Owen Office Registrar (13th class)

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2013
    Messages:
    77
    Likes Received:
    10
    Gender:
    Male
    Russia is so "UK in 1974" in many ways, gays, women, washing machine/salary, Quality, Health & Safety, shopping, nationalism, immigration (UK now), racism. But the roads in the UK have been better since 1880, at least and housing per person is late Victorian (typical working class Victorian terrace house in a provincial city is 75 sq metres). Russia's a time machine. The 1967 cultural revolution which kicked off change has yet to strike. I am surprised the 1980's baby boomers have been so passive. I suppose the 1990's taught them caution. It will be another 20 years of prosperity before the present baby boom starts to rock the boat.

Share This Page