NGOs

Discussion in 'Russian Politics' started by Russian Truth, Aug 16, 2013.

  1. Russian Truth

    Russian Truth Office Registrar (13th class)

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    Great forum! Do any of you cover NGOs? Here is a list of some U.S. funded ones. http://survincity.com/2011/04/list-of-cia-funded-russian-ngos/

    If you want to cover Russian politics you must start with the slew of U.S. funded NGOs. These are American taxpayer funded. Russia has already kicked out USAID in October of 2012. Freedom House and the National Endowment for Democracy remain. Interesting how both Democrats and Republicans get to decide what organizations they want to create in order to destabilize Russia. The NED gives each party money to spend however they want. Remember, they were directly responsible for all the "colored revolutions". The quote that sums this all up is...

    "A lot of what we [NED] do was done 25 years ago covertly by the CIA" - Alan Weinstein (first president).

    Yes, most of the opposition are funded and/or trained with American taxpayer dollars. Navalny headed DA!. DA! was funded by American taxpayers via the NED. Here is a great breakdown on Navalny and his American funded efforts. http://landdestroyer.blogspot.com/2011/12/wall-street-vs-russia.html I also find it interesting how Navalny is often seen with his family. That is straight from the American playbook. He dresses casually as well. The guy is the creation of some American lab. I first heard that on Vk.com. I laughed. But now I get what the guy meant who said it. He doesn't seem real. I saw him once in person. The guy looked made of wax. Seriously.

    BTW, I am working on a lengthy investigative piece involving one very odd U.S. taxpayer funded opposition face - Vera Kichanova. Insane story. Involves a trip to the White House for a meeting with Susan Rice, a shady international American gay right's activist who helped create a Russian political party, strange claims of being involved in a gay bashing by this...http://ncontent.life.ru/media/2/news/2013/08/117345/400_1.jpg , hanging around CIA created institutions, supporting Navalny (a nationalist), and more. This all involving a 22 year old! BTW, this is how her "husband" (I have more on him) and her normally look https://pp.vk.me/c416217/v416217974/2e87/9rsFos2ASzA.jpg They are the "little ones".

    If any of you have any information on her or The Libertarian Party of Russia please let me know. I would greatly appreciate it. Russian, English, or Italian.

    I already did a breakdown on her Democracy Award. http://russiantruth.wordpress.com/2013/07/29/2013-democracy-award-event/ I like links. Lots and lots of links. Investigative work is not about writing style.
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  2. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Oh Vera's going places alright!

    Mark on Kremlin Stooge has mentioned this "rising star" as well.


    See: "Meet Vera Kichanova, Russia's Rising Libertarian Activist"

    Well wow and golly gosh! She was advised by her libertarian boyfriend "to read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged" and she "got interested and read some books by the Austrian School". She then "knew there was a group of people who called themselves the Libertarian Party of Russia....They were academic people who met each other in Liberty School, organized by Cato* in Georgia, and I joined them".


    * Cato Institute


    Is Vera a new "Chosen One" I wonder?

    Here's Vera (right) at the Griboedov monument at Chistye Prudy protesting against conscription:

    [​IMG]
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2013
  3. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    And here's Vera getting lifted by some of the Evil One's Orcs. Our Vera looks like a proper little handful, doesn't she?

    [​IMG]


    Needless to say, Vera does not recall the Soviet Union, nor, should I imagine, has she any recollection of the Yeltsin "Golden Years" so beloved by Randians.
  4. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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  5. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Here’s a translation of “I know who the fourth one was.”

    Another member of the controversial group Pussy Riot was a student at Moscow State University Faculty of Journalism is the recently elected municipal deputy for the Moscow District of Southern Tushino, Vera Kichanova. This has been blogged… Yes, one of the bloggers has found that the closeness of their gatherings is too tight to hide from friendly eyes.

    Another member of the controversial group Pussy Riot was a student at Moscow State University Faculty of Journalism is the recently elected municipal deputy for the Moscow District of Southern Tushino, Vera Kichanova.

    Describing the joint participation in debates at the “Kangaroo Club”, Tolokonnikova calls her girlfriend as “lesbo-libertarian”, both she and her participating in a militant feminist faction of the artistic group “War”. By the way, Mark Feigin, Tolokonnikova’s current a lawyer, took part in these debates.


    It is not known whether Kichanova took part in a scandalous provocation at Christ the Saviour Cathedral. However, it has been reliably established that she is involved in the management and planning of Pussy Riot and has participated in earlier actions of the group.

    Album photograph: Vera Kichanova Vkontakte – her Pussy Riot mask. Comment to photo: “Anti-Luk Extremist. Author: Evgenii Feldman, 2011″.

    And here’s Vera in a mask at on one of the first Pussy Riot actions. The photo is in her Vkontakte, where she took photographs of hereself (screenshots).

    But in the early Pussy Riot actions they didn’t wear masks:

    And here’s an example photo of one of the early actions of the art group “War” militant feminist faction in defence of fellow anti-fascists. In the photo: Tolokno Kichanova and a number of “people” are chained together by handcuffs shouting: “Russia Without Pputin,” “Freedom for the Anti-Fascist Gaskarov,” “Freedom for the Anti-Fascists Solopov “, “We need another Russia”, “Down With the Power of the KGB”, OMON OUT!”,” This Is Our City!”, “LOL”, ” Save the Khimki Forest”,”Con-STI-tutsiya “(not in anarchy),” Freedom of Assembly Is Aways and Everywhere! ” “Stop Cutting Down the Forest!”.

    The video shows that directing the girls is Tolokonnikova’s husband, Peter Verzilov:

    And here’s Vera Kichanova with her girlfriend and active member of Pussy Riot, Catherine “Kate” Samutsevich, the third one that was arrested for the Christ the Saviour Cathedral Provocation.

    Kichanova and Tolokna marching in a “Queers”-column.

    And this photo from Tolokonnikova’s Facebook showing Kate and Tolokno making Molotov cocktails

    UPDATE

    http://drug-goy.livejournal.com/841582.html – here the user writes about Katz. The questions/answers to and from Kichanova come from the Question/Answer forum “Formspring”. It goes without saying that they are a great pair:

    I read the on Formspring Kichanov –http://www.formspring.me/kichanova – her hair has changed. There’s a lot about her relationship with Maxim Katz. A few quotes:

    1) Question – How do you feel about “sex for one night?”

    Answer – Normal (please do not think this as meaning “sleeping around”). There were a couple of times, but for friendship with girls.

    2) Question – Vera, why do you do boys, if all your boys are feminine?

    Answer – And my girls are like boys. I love androgyny.

    3) Question – Hang on! You say – there’s a guy, and tweeted about Stasya. Is that so? Do you have an open relationship? No jealousy?

    Answer – Open. Jealousy is exactly at levels in which it is beneficial relationships. We all are approaching each other perfectly.

    4) Question – Is Katz a boy?

    Answer – Yes.

    5) Question – Are you lesbians?

    Answer – First, the word is wrong. Secondly, I am bisexual.

    6) Question – Aren’t you using politics just to hook boys?

    Answer – And even more girls [​IMG]

    And the most hellish question of all:

    7) Question – How does your boyfriend feel about o the fact that you’re bi? Not jealous of the girls?

    Answer – No more than I am of the boys [​IMG]

    The residents of Southern Tushino have chosen a remarkable delegate to represent them.

    Original material: magiq-polit.livejournal.com


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  6. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Amor vincit omnia!

    [​IMG]

    Washington's choice as a replacement for Chirikova?
  7. Russian Truth

    Russian Truth Office Registrar (13th class)

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    Moscow Exile is on FIRE.

    [​IMG][​IMG]
  8. Russian Truth

    Russian Truth Office Registrar (13th class)

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    I have always wondered what role Tom Palmer has had in Pussy Riot. He is a Neo-Libertarian who seems more interested in gay rights for Eastern Europe and the Middle East. https://russiademocracy.eventbrite.com/

    Does anyone really think that Pussy Riot wasn't co-opted by some foreign group or government?
  9. Russian Truth

    Russian Truth Office Registrar (13th class)

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    Kichanova behind Tolokna.[​IMG]
  10. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    I
    I'd bet my bottom ruble on that!
  11. Sky Fisher

    Sky Fisher Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    I'm having a hard time seeing Vera as a libertarian, at least in my understanding of the term. True, the article link was to "Reason" - a libertarian magazine that's been around for a long time, but still...

    I suppose there are different types of "libertarian" and political terminology has a tendency to migrate and become pretty much meaningless. I do consider myself something of a libertarian, but I think I'd probably slap poor Vera senseless if we ever were to meet.

    She is naive, to say the very least. Pussy Riot is such an obvious manufactured political vehicle, designed solely for the purpose of destabilizing about the only government capable of making a serious challenge to US imperialism and the plutocracy of the Western banking criminal cartel. I noticed the puppet strings on that circus the moment I first heard of them. And the gay activism stuff? Really, Vera? That's another manufactured political puppet show. Untalented performance artists and gay people are as free as anyone else to be themselves, but, like the rest of us there are (and should be) certain reasonable limitations on public obscenity and propaganda. These are not innocent expressions of individuality, but rather aggressive assaults on the beliefs and values others hold dear, with the aim of gaining special privilege, as they would surely not like others to assault them in the same manner. A certain level of decorum in public isn't just traditional, it's a good thing that protects everyone. That would be a reasonable libertarian view, in my opinion.

    Putin is doing a pretty good job as far as I can see. If Pussy Riot and sulking about gay parades are the centerpieces of the anti-Putin gang, it shows they don't have much by way of genuine complaints against him.
  12. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Going back to the subject of the NGO law, it has now reached the Constitutional Court. This should provide some useful clarity as to its provisions eg. what counts as political activity and what does not. I speak as a supporter of the law.

    Turning to Vera Kichanova, I am not the first person to say that liberalism and anarchism have a much greater ideological affinity for each other than either does to (true) conservatism and socialism. Both liberalism and anarchism are highly individualist ideologies. Both proceed from a mistrust of the state. Liberalism (rather grudgingly) accepts the state as a necessary evil to protect private property. Anarchism takes the view that if private property requires protection from the state then it too must be evil.

    It is therefore in no way surprising that an extreme liberal (or "libertarian" to use the now fashionable term) such as Vera Kichanova is a friend of an ultra left anarchist such as Tolokonnikova. I would add that judging from her own comments and articles Tolokonnikova's anarchism is of a very confused sort.

    As for the US, I say it again, if it is investing money in the likes of Vera Kichanova then it is throwing its money away. As I have also said before, Russia - even Moscow - is not California and it is a fundamental mistake to think of it as if it is. To the overwhelming majority of Russians someone like Vera Kichanova and her opinions comes across not as engaging but as bizarre. Supporting people like Vera Kichanova is therefore a total waste of time and explains why US efforts to shape Russian politics invariably ends in failure. If the US really wants to understand and influence Russia then it needs to start talking to people who have real traction with the Russian people and real influence, which means first and foremost the parliamentary parties including the Communists. It also means accepting that these people hold their own opinions which the US might not share and are entitled to hold them. Of course there's absolutely no chance of the US doing that.
  13. Sky Fisher

    Sky Fisher Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    I like the way you defined those terms, Alexander. Political terminology tends to get muddied in definition, to the point where people are arguing that black is white and up is really down. It's always good in any discussion like this to have our terms clearly defined. Thanks for doing that.

    If I'm causing the thread to drift off the original topic, please let me know. If I am going off-topic too much, perhaps some of the discussion should be moved to a new thread? Since I'm new here, I don't know how these things are managed, and I'd sure like some guidance on it.

    Libertarianism, in the sense that I have of it, is just a modern term for the classic liberalism of the Thomas Jefferson variety. This is not Ayn Rand- she was something else entirely. There was no altruism or community value in her world, at least none that I recognized when I read "Atlas Shrugged." Jefferson, however, was a strong believer in the virtue of cooperation, community standards, and higher ideals. Rand was an elitist of a stark Darwinian kind. Many of her followers have a ruthlessness towards the rights of others that simply does not fit with my sense of individual rights.

    Since I'm not a Utopian, my political views are more pragmatic than idealistic. In a perfect world, most any political philosophy would work because everyone would be perfect. The history of societies tends to be cyclical, and all political philosophies serve valuable purposes within it, by counterbalancing the excesses of each other and guiding the cycle back towards stability when one model has gone too far and morphed into something destructive. True absolute anarchy has its own value in the cycle, within the unavoidable chaos between the fall of a corrupted scheme and the development of a new one.

    Here in the US, I think we're in a phase where the excesses of centralization and certain types of elitism have reached a dangerous breaking point, and it's time for a return to local community virtue and Jeffersonian libertarianism. Yes, I doubt that'll happen without a fight, but I am a persistent optimist.

    My question for all of you is what is it that Russia needs right now? Where is it heading? I see Russia as having been through some vicious extremes in rapid succession, and these days it seems to be moving in the direction of greater stability and social cooperation. The era of the oligarchs was a bit like Ayn Rand gone wild, wasn't it? Aren't Vera and her kind acting a bit out of step with the seasons of history? Russia's just been through all of that, and sure looks to me like it's on to something better now.

    And, lastly, definitely on the topic of NGOs, I have to say that I don't see why US efforts to shape Russian politics should be tolerated at all. That's like going into someone else's house and trying to rearrange their furniture to suit your own tastes. It's particularly offensive for Washington to be such a busybody around the world, as it's not only bad manners, but the US isn't even a good example for anyone to want to emulate.
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  14. Russian Truth

    Russian Truth Office Registrar (13th class)

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    I, for one, feel that Kichanova is not for Russian consumption. Nope. Kichanova is for Western consumption. She could be used to get Westerners even more upset at the evils of Putin and Russia. Have her arrested. Place the picture of a strange young hipster female on American TV behind bars and all of Brooklyn would be ready to invade Moscow tomorrow. That is the idea. Create hatred and distrust of Russia among those in the West.

    Do you think that contempt for the "homosexual propaganda law" just popped up on its own a few weeks ago? Remember the Chinese Games? Six months before Beijing you started to hear about Tibet. Movie stars and journalists were calling for boycotting the games. The day of the Opening Ceremonies Georgian aggression against Russia happened. The Opening Ceremonies in America was multiple hours of Chinese and Russian bashing. Trust me, this is how U.S. intelligence communities work.

    Kichanova has no political knowledge at all. I have emailed her in English and Russian. Asked her about her views on Libertarianism. Usually, a 22 year old politician is more than happy to respond. Nothing. Nothing at all. These were very polite and supportive emails. I had to bite my lip while typing them up. Not one reply! I even question if her emails don't go directly to Langley. Same goes for Navalny. His entire campaign feels foreign. It seems so plastic. His wife is so visible. How many times do Russian politicians parade their families in front of the cameras? With Navalny I actually think the State Department had hopes for him. Now their best hope is that he gets sent to prison so that they have another political prisoner to throw at you.
  15. john smith

    john smith Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    Couple of years ago I tried to look for a list of NGO's American, British, etc operating in Russia but all I could really find is the NED funded ones listed on their website that is just one organisation. There is also Soros who is more pervasive like in Serbia likely funds the gay rights movement and even the deposed oligarchs that have there own NGOs and western foundations.

    There is also a number of foreign terrorist NGO's that Russia has a list of 25 that they have never published and as practice destroy any collective evidence after 5 years and pro-Chechen and Caucasus foundations in the US and Europe.

    There is also the numerous other NGOs not just in Russia but in the near abroad and the US working against Russian interests with energy policy, coloured revolution, Turkish lobbies and an Turkish identity politics in Eurasia, non- Russia ethnic groups, etc.
  16. Hero of Crappy Town

    Hero of Crappy Town Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    To her credit Kichanova is explicitly not for that.

    From the Reason piece: http://reason.com/archives/2013/08/01/a-libertarian-future-for-russia/1

    "Kichanova: Their idea of capitalism was compromised in the '90s during the market reforms after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The majority of people were very unhappy about how the reforms were enacted. These reforms were in favor of oligarchs The most difficult task for us is to explain that oligarchy is not about the free market, but about government invasion of the market."

    Doesn't sound like a return to the 90s is something she would be in favor of.

    I agree. A 22 year-old girl? Give me a break. She is a nobody. I'm more interested to learn about the nationalists.
  17. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Classical liberalism and anarchism have an ideological affinity to each other. That does not mean that they are the same. Nor is the sort of extreme, degenerated liberalism that we see today the kind that traditional liberals would recognise. The great founders of the liberal tradition, Montesquieu, Diderot, Voltaire, J.S. Mill and of course Thomas Jefferson in the US would not give the likes of Ayn Rand the time of day any more than true conservatives like say Edmund Burke or Chateaubriand or (in the US tradition) Senator Robert Taft would have any truck with today's neocons. In fact it's doubtful that classic liberals would recognise libertarians of the Ayn Rand/Vera Kichanova sort as liberals any more than true conservatives today consider the neocons conservatives.

    Since you have brought up the subject of Ayn Rand, one important point to remember about her is that she was Russian. She emigrated to the US from the USSR abandoning her family behind her. I have always felt that the intense egotism of her philosophy was at least in part a result of her effort to come to terms with her sense of guilt at her desertion of her family.

    I would by the way say that though we tend to think of Russia as a collectivist society, this is something of a misconception. Anarchism, which is a highly individualist even egocentric ideology, originated in Russia whilst Ayn Rand was by no means unique amongst early twentieth century Russian liberals in her ideas. The political views of Nabokov, another early twentieth century Russian liberal who found his way to the US, were in some ways very similar to Ayn Rand's. Vera Kichanova therefore does represent a genuine Russian tradition of political thought but one that basically died out in the twentieth century and which is pretty marginal today.
  18. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    I have a short answer to this. What Russia needs now more than anything is 20 years of peace and quiet. The preceding 25 years have been a period of extraordinary change. They came after roughly a century of revolutionary change (the 18 years of Brezhnev - wrongly mislabelled in my opinion "the era of stagnation" - were a brief period of much needed stability). What Russia now needs is a period of political calm in which people can get on with their lives and all the immense changes the country has seen can be assimilated and worked through.

    Beyond that, I make no predictions. Given the country's history and temperament I suspect that eventual orientation will be one very substantially to the Left in socio economic terms of what we have in the US and western Europe today, with a much more activist state and welfare system, but it would be foolish to make predictions so far into the future. Besides though I said I think Russia needs 20 years of peace and quiet no one can guarantee it will get it.
  19. Alexander Mercouris

    Alexander Mercouris Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Here I completely agree. US meddling in Russian domestic affairs is completely misconceived and counterproductive. The sponsorship of individuals like Kichanova and indeed Navalny shows that the US simply does not understand Russia very well. When the US's opinions of what was right for Russia did prevail in the 1990s the result for Russia was a disaster. It's by the way clear to me that one of the reasons for the personal distaste between Obama and Putin was Obama's foolish attempt to play Medvedev off against Putin during Medvedev's Presidency. That was an obvious non starter yet it seems incredibly as if Obama actually sent Biden to Moscow in 2011 to warn Putin against standing for the Presidency - as if it is the prerogative of the US President to decide who should be President of Russia!

    You are also absolutely correct in saying that the US uses NGOs as a kind of fifth column to engineer "colour revolutions" in countries whose government it doesn't like. It did this in Serbia and then again in Georgia and in the Ukraine. My brother who works as a European Affairs Consultant has told me that during Saakashvili's heyday Georgia was referred to within the European Commission bureaucracy as "the NGO state".

    Given that this is so, it is simply inevitable that a government like that of Russia, which finds itself confronted with this sort of thing, would take the basic precaution of insisting that NGOs that obtain their funding from abroad and which engage in political activity should declare the fact. As I have repeatedly said, if the radical opposition in Russia had any sense it would actually welcome the NGO law. By refusing foreign money and by being able to prove it through the system of auditing and registration that is now in effect it would be able to show to the Russian people that it is genuinely patriotic and not a US financed fifth column.

    Instead the whole approach has been one of fanatical obstruction. The NGOs have been engaged in all sorts of elaborate schemes to go on receiving foreign money in a way that circumvents the law. Meanwhile the US authorities seem determined to go on funding them just as before.

    http://rt.com/politics/us-foreign-ngo-russia-890/

    The fact that taking foreign money and circumventing the law discredits the opposition in the minds of most Russians is something the opposition seems unable to understand. The fact that attempting to micromanage Russian politics from afar by funding certain Russian politicians and activists is certain to end in failure and can only antagonise Russia is a lesson the US seems unable to learn. Rather than reassess their failed policies the response of both the Russian radical opposition and the US is to blame, apparently in all sincerity, the Russian government for obstructing their plans to overthrow it.
  20. Hero of Crappy Town

    Hero of Crappy Town Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    The three most famous anarchists of all times, Bakunin, Kropotkin and Tolstoy, were all Russians. In as much as any nation can lay claim to anarchism as an invention of its own it is the Russians. The claim that Russia is a traditionally a collectivist society is repeated ad nauseam, but a careful observer will note much of that "collectivism" was always enforced by the state and was not a willful choice of the people. Indeed the claim collectivism comes naturally to Russia was used to defend serfdom and then later to defend socialism. Still later it was used by authoritarian nationalists who were interested in repressing vice (alcohol, rock n' roll). Yet despite such claims ordinary Russians have shown quite willing to abandon collectivists modes of organization when given the chance. In fact I am just reading a book on the massive upheavals in the countryside that were brought on by the agrarian collectivization drive of the 1930s. Not only were Russian peasants happy to remain individual propertied farmers, they often for this right violently despite the odds against them. Anyway, I would say that, in as much as anything traditionally characterizes Russian political thinking, it is neither collectivism nor individualism. It is non-conformism.

    What must strike anyone first becoming acquainted with Russian 19th century political thinkers and activists is their sheer radicalism, their commitment to doctrine, refusal to compromise and passion to hold out against all opposition. I believe it is not necessary to spend time explaining why the Russian "left" of the time fits this description. The record of the narodniki and the Social Revolutionaries is well known and speaks for itself. But I would say even the Slavophile "right" fits it. Their positions may seem like easy ones to hold in their time and place, but they were actually not. Seen in a wider European context, the Slavophiles were intellectual outcasts for whom their their colleagues in the West, whatever part of political spectrum they came for, had only scorn and contempt — but they were not afraid to isolate themselves so.

    I have once read an essay which put Ayn Rand in a context as a Russian radical writer. I can't find it right now, but I think it may have been brought up by Adomanis so likely some of you have read it as well. Anyway, the gist of it as a I recall was that Rand was something very fresh and unthinkable on the American literary scene, but in a Russian context her work wouldn't be that different from that of other Russian radical writers who followed in the footsteps of Chernishevsky. I am not talking here about the ideas she was attempting to promote (which are obviously a far cry from those of Chernishevsky) but her temperament, her conviction and her single-mindedness.

    Anyway I do not know why Rand gets brought up so much. Albeit she was a libertarian of sorts she was not one if you asked her. She explicitly rejected the label and the philosophy, and indeed ridiculed libertarians as "the hippies of the right". Instead she started a distinct movement based on her own philosophy (Objectivism) which she claimed was wholly distinct from any other. The movement is still around and pretty much detests libertarians, the feeling being mutual. Rand's importance to libertarianism was mostly in that her books were how many individuals first became acquainted with vaguely libertarian ideas and were what set them on the path that eventually led them to absorb other, more serious libertarian thinkers. This was true for a few generations but is a thing of the past now, since now there is Ron Paul. The new mega-gateway to libertarianism.

    Robert Taft like a lot of the Old Right was doctrinally actually a classical liberal. Liberalism is of course the original "left" doctrine, but as liberals in the US degenerated into social-democrats the actual liberals got shifted to the right by default. The neocons' origins are with Cold War Democrats and before that with Trotskyites. They have very little to do with conservatives in that conservative thinkers are not among their intellectual influences at all. It is not a situation that would be analogous to libertarians and classical liberals, because it is the case that libertarians are the only ones who still pay tribute to classical liberals and occasionly even read them. (Certainly the present day "liberals" do not read 19th century liberals.) Libertarians regularly make references to the likes of Frederic Bastiat, von Mises, JB Say, Richard Cobden... Also there are thinkers from the first half of the 20th century such as Frank Chodorov and Albert Jay Nock for whom it is impossible to say they were merely liberals or merely libertarians, they link both together. Indeed it has been argued that libertarian anarchism is merely classical liberalism driven to its logical conclusions.

    It is difficult to say how close anarchism and classical liberalism are because in fact there are multiple anarchist visions that are as distinct from one another as strands of etatism are between themselves. The anarchism of Bakunin isn't much like the anarchism of Tolstoy, which in turn isn't much like the anarchism of Benjamin Tucker. Bakunin's and Kropotkin's communist anarchism, which is the most widely known, could not be more distinct from classical liberalism. The two start off the same basis but with asymmetrical positions. The liberals hold the state is a necessary evil that must be endured for the sake of being able to enjoy property. Anarcho-communists meanwhile seek to abolish the state in order to abolish property. They believe that a stateless society wold not know property. Libertarian anarchism on the other hand rejects the notion of the state as a necessary condition for property. It seeks to abolish the state seeing property rights and the state as incompatible. It maintains there would be property in a society that was not subject to a state and that it is just in such a society that property is most securely held. Seemingly then property anarchism and classical liberalism have considerable commonalities. Indeed the first thinker to envisage and explain how the market could replace the state in providing justice and security was the French liberal Gustave de Molinari in his 1849 essay The Production of Security. A true anarcho-liberal then.
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