Immigration Reform

Discussion in 'Russian Society' started by Joshua, Aug 8, 2013.

  1. Joshua

    Joshua Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    I'd like to ask people's opinions on i idea i have of immigration in Russia and how it should be altered:

    I think the Duma should change the immigration to be if somewhat politically incorrect but common sense when looking at the nature of society of Russia. Russians aren't fans of left liberal multicultural dogma that western European countries have embraced (and regret), they are proud of their culture and and collective ethnic Slavic identity and wish to preserve it. I propose that the Russian government should have ethnicity based immigration policy which only allows only certain ethnic groups to immigrate: Belorussians, Ukrainians, Poles, Czechs/Slovaks, Estonians, Volga-Germans, Lithuanians, Latvians, and Obviously Russians. I don't want to offend anyone but i think that every country should be able to protect and preserve its own cultue, identity and people.

    Thoughts?
  2. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Putin always stresses the multi-ethnic nature of the Russian Federation, and this multi-ethnicity was inherited from the Russian Empire.

    The post-Soviet immigration surge from the Central Asian "Stan" republics notwithstanding, what many Western visitors don't realize when in Moscow is that the second biggest ethnic group in Moscow after the ethnic Slavs, which in its turn consists of Russians, Belorussians and Ukrainians, is that of the Tatars. And they've been here for some 500 years or more.

    Another point that is not often understood by Anglophone Westerners is that the word "Russian" can be translated in two ways: either as "русский" (russkiy) or as "россиянин" (rossiyanin). The former means an ethnic, Slavic Russian; the latter means a citizen of the Russian Federation: Russians, Kazakhs, Tatars, Bashkirs, Chechens etc. are all "rossiyane" (plural of "rossiyanin"), as is a "russkiy". "Russian Federation" in Russian is not "Russkaya Federatsiya" (Русская Федерация), but "Rossiiskaya Federatsiya" (Российская Федерация). Similarly, we did not talk of the "English Empire" but the "British Empire" and "russkiy" is to "English" as is "British" to "rossiiskiy".

    In the 20 years that I have lived in Moscow I have witnessed noticeable changes in the ethnic mix of my central Moscow neighbourhood. Many ethnic Russians don't like this. However, I have to say that every day I see immigrants - mostly Tadzhiks - cleaning the yards and streets round here, clearing the garbage from the houses, cutting the grass, shifting the snow etc., etc. And before that, it was Ukrainians and Vietnamese that did this kind of work. I have never seen a Russian doing these menial tasks. So if these advocates of "Russia for the Russians" have their way and force the repatriation of these people to where they came from, who will be willing to do this work?

    Russians (ethnic) certainly won't.
  3. Patrick Armstrong

    Patrick Armstrong Commissar

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    I think Russia is a genuinely multi-ethnic country. I used to amuse myself asking Russians if they had 4 Russian grandparents. Very very few did (this using commie period Russkiy)

    My favourite illustration: the three generals commanding at Borodino were
    Kutuzov (a Tatar origin name) Bagration (Georgian royal family) and Barclay de Tolly (a Frenchified Scot). How perfectly Russian!

    Centuries of intermarriage among Slavs, Finno-Ugric, Caucasians, Tatars, Varangians, Siberians and others have produced the "Russians".
  4. MarkPavelovich

    MarkPavelovich Commissar

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    Moscow Exile, your take is somewhat analogous to the Mexican border states and immigrants from Mexico, some of them "illegals". They do work that no self-respecting Californio or Arizonan wants to do; gardening/landscaping, pumping gas, service-industry jobs. Would there be a rush for those jobs tomorrow if the Mexicans were pushed back over the border tonight? The hell there would.

    The Russian problem is actually similar in terms of the requirement for immigration reform, as well - both suffer from significant numbers of undocumented immigrants. For the USA, this causes a tax and a demographic problem, as the numbers of Latinos are getting to critical mass for Spanish being pushed for an official second language. For Russia, undocumented immigrants mess up their census and cause problems for the security services. Even the desires are similar - fewer immigrants, on the part of most people. And there the paths divide. The USA is overpopulated, if anything, and would not suffer much from stricter control and a drop in inward migration. Russia needs to keep the positive population growth going, but at the same time regulate for demographics of origin and keep an eye on where immigrants are settling to prevent the formation of ghettoes. In both countries, it makes no sdense to allow in large numbers of immigrants when you have no work for them, a lesson France is still grappling with.
  5. Morgoth

    Morgoth Office Registrar (13th class)

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    I think that the creation of the Eurasian Union will probably reduce the flow of immigrants entering Russia from central Asia as the Russian border could be effectively moved south from where it is now to the southern border of Kazakhstan, also, if nations such as Kyrgyzstan were to join, the opportunity exists for economic development to be accelerated in those nations through the Eurasian Union and therefore reduce net emigration from those nations as virtually all immigrants to Russia from central Asia move for economic reasons.
  6. MarkPavelovich

    MarkPavelovich Commissar

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    Agreed; good points.
  7. AKarlin

    AKarlin Generalissimo Staff Member

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    @Joshua,

    I mostly agree. Kyrgyzstan scored lower than India in the PISA tests (their results translate to an average IQ of about 75). And Kyrgyzstan is a more advanced nation than either Uzbekistan or Tajikistan.

    Of course Russia can allow the current influxes to continue. But it should be aware that on current trends, there will appear a large and permanent underclass a couple of decades down the line. The first generation immigrants at least work hard. The second generation immigrants, if the experience of practically all of Western Europe is anything to go by, become underemployed, welfare-dependent, resentful, and criminalized.

    @Moscow Exile,

    Tatars aren't comparable to Central Asians. They are a completely integrated historical minority. For a start, they don't practice extensive inbreeding.


    The cities of Belarus are often praised by Russian visitors as being both very clean and free of Central Asian/Caucasian immigrants. There is also a lot more security. Again, they are amazed to discover that you can actually walk the streets of Minsk safely at night. That is certainly not true in Moscow, even today.


    There are no statistics or data on his. But it appears so often anecdotally that it must be true.
  8. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    As regards your comment on Tatars, I agree totally.

    The thing is about the word "immigrants", especially when they are deemed to have arrived from former colonial possessions of a particular state, is that for many Westerners the term is cognate with "Sub-Saharan Africans". To use the racist term, I'm talking about what used to be called "coloureds".

    I remember when I first began to live in the Evil Empire and the first tentative Western tourists started visiting Moscow. There's a backpackers' guide called "Lonely Planet" and I think it was in the first post-Soviet edition of this publication intended for those who wished to visit Russia that I read a warning to readers that they should be prepared to be "shocked" by the "whiteness" of the city. Apparently, backpackers to Moscow then couldn't, and very likely still can't now, tell a russkiy from a rossiyanin!

    For example, this man, popular singer and Russian patriot Oleg Gazmanov, is a rossiyanin, a Tatar:



    My immediate dacha neighbours are Tatars, and very good neighbours they are too. They are all of the Islamic faith - they say in Russian "Praise be to Allah!" and not the Slavic "Praise be to God!" - and have no distinguishing "Asiatic" physical features or skin pigmentation. It's an extended family - a very, very old great grandma, grandma and grandpa, sons and daughters, grandchildren and great-grandchildren. Oh yes, and they're all highly educated as well. Except for birthdays, they're not all at their dacha at the same time, but when the grandchildren are there, my little daughter spends as much time as a guest with the Tatars a she does with us. And my children all wear a cross and the Tatars wear their religious symbol: a little green medallion on which is written something in Arabic - "Allah is Great!" I should imagine, and there is never any bother whatsoever. Total integration. They all hail from central Moscow by the way, their forefathers first having arrived here, of course, some 700 years ago.

    As regards Moscow being a dangerous city, I beg to differ. I think Moscow is no more dangerous than most other European cities. During my 20 year residence here, I have had my pocket picked once on the metro, and way out in the dark, partially lit suburbs - just outside of Moscow, actually, in the former Kaliningrad, now Korolyov - I was mugged. My assailants were Georgians.

    If you check out "safety in Moscow" in the web, you read much the same that I believe. However, I see on the web that Westerners write, for example: "Moscow is no more dangerous than other other [sic] major capital although I must admit that I felt extremely uneasy when travelling on the metro in the evenings..."

    I wonder why the person whom I quote above felt "uneasy" on the metro? I have only once seen a scuffle on the metro, though I've witnessed plenty of arguments there, and little drunkenness for that matter: the cops grab you before you get down the escalators if you are pissed. I know from personal experience! (In the police station at the Chekovskaya metro station where I had been stopped and arrested, the desk sergeant looked at my passport, came from around his desk towards me, sniffed at me and said: "Do you like Russian vodka then?" I slurred in reply: "Obviously" whereupon he handed me back my passport and said to me "Fuck off out of here!" or the near equivalent in Russian thereof.)

    I feel that many who make comments about safety in Moscow have got locked into repeating memes about Russia, e.g. "gangs of drunken skinheads", "racists", "attacks against dark skinned or foreign looking people".

    This comment about safety in Moscow is a classic:

    "Moscow is not a foreigner-friendly city, though, and you'll have to learn few words in Russian. People on the streets may be able to communicate or at least to understand you, yet common things like signposts and announcements in public transport are only written/spoken in Russian."

    Well who'd have thought it? They speak Russian in Russia!
  9. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    "Three out of four Russian citizens are against immigrants" says the headline of this Moskovskaya Pravda article.

    "And more than half are in favour of stricter entry rules.

    "Three-quarters of Russian citizens are opposed to immigration in Russia in its current form. According to a survey, 74% of our fellow citizens believe that immigrants are bad, while 53% would like to tighten immigration law."

    Again from today's KP: "Federal Migration Service unable to identify 90% of Vietnamese in Gol'yanovo tent city".

    Included in the article is a video clip showing living conditions that the rounded up illegals are experiencing under canvas. Of course, the human rights people are squawking about the place.

    Looks fine to me: clean beds, plenty of toilets, clean running water, washing facilities, a field kitchen.

    If they're still there in 4 months though, they'll have cause to complain, for it'll be considerably cooler here than it is in Ho Chi Min City in December.
  10. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    “Nothing can justify massive detentions based on ethnic profiling”, Tanya Lokshina (shown below), Deputy head of the Moscow Office of Human Rights Watch, Programme director of the Moscow Helsinki Group.

    Pardon my naivety, but haven't these people been detained because they are illegal immigrants and not because they are Vietnamese, Tadzhik, Azerbaidzhanis, Uzbeks, etc., etc?

    [​IMG]

    And here is Lokshina on the "opposition" programme "Your Rights", transmitted by Pik.TV (First Information Channel - remember folks! No freedom of information in the Evil Empire)



    The 19 July 2012 programme is called "The Systematic Revenge of the Putin Regime"

    The lengthy lead-in to Lokshina's appearance includes the following:

    "Less than a hundred days into Vladimir Putin's third presidential term, and there have now been issued a series of draconian laws against Russian civil society. Every day freedoms in Russia are disappearing: laws have been issued poste-haste by the State Duma against Non Governmental Organizations; legislation against public rallies have been reinforced, as have the libel laws concerning the Internet...

    "Indicative of this was the reaction of the Russian authorities to the Krymsk tragedy. [Kuban River flooding disaster in the Krasnodar region - ME.] The legislature has already prepared a legal concept concerning the law on voluntary activities. In fact, volunteers will be banned from prying into where people need help, and the government will be desperately trying to hide its real role in such events. After all, the terrible truth about the tragedy of the Kuban was not spread across Russia by the federal television channels, but by thousands of volunteers who had arrived from all over the country to help...

    "The question is, how quickly will these repressive measures be accepted? Will the Kremlin achieve the outcome it expects? Our guest in this programme is Tanya Lokshina, senior researcher with the Russian International Human Rights Organization, Human Rights Watch, (HRW)."

    Observe closely Lokshina's mannerisms!

    She speaks with barely concealed loathing and contempt about the Russian head of state and his government. She is, in my opinion, the archetypal elitist white-ribbonist that holds all those who did not agree with her Weltausschauung as быдло, Untermenschen, Sheeple, Lumpenprolatariat etc., etc. She seems to be a clone of another who has very similar mannerisms; a person who constantly sneers at the majority of her compatriots, believing that they should be disenfranchised: I am talking, of course, of that "Fighter For Freedom" and lover of Pinochet, Yulia Latynina.

    And if Lokshina is not a hireling of Washington, then I'll show my arse in front of the Lenin Mausoleum!

    But what really, really gets me, is how these Washington agents land these Human Rights jobs in Russia. Clearly, this woman has been trained specifically to replace another traitor, Alekseeva when that US agent shrugs of at last her mortal coil.
  11. royotoyo

    royotoyo Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    As a near twenty year Moscow resident I'd also like to take issue with the assertion that you can't safely walk the streets at night. I imagine there are certain times in certain neighborhoods to be avoided, but, in general, I'd say it's safer than most European capitals and NYC in terms of street crime. For a while, your biggest threats were from law enforcement personnel, but that has subsided substantially as their level of professionalism has increased.
  12. Moscow Exile

    Moscow Exile Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    Latest news is that the tent city for illegals is going to be closed next week, according to KP:

    The Federal Immigration Service has succeeded in identifying all the the Vietnamese now in Gol'yanovo tent city.

    The "tent city" for illegal immigrants, located in Moscow's Gol'yanovo district, will be closed next week, the Moscow administration of the FIS has stated.

    Earlier it was reported that 90 percent of the Vietnamese camp internees had given false information about themselves. This had principally been the result of difficulties in transliterating their names into Russian. However, with the assistance of the Vietnam Embassy, this problem was quickly eliminated.

    To date, the camp contains almost 600 people, the vast majority of whom being Vietnamese.

    "Next week, all the violators will be deported to their home countries", said Moscow Federal Immigration Service chief, Olga Kirillova, on Friday, August 9. "All the documents have already been prepared for this."

    Readers should recall that the tent camp was set up in a Gol'yanovo industrial zone on August 1 after an incident at the Matveyevskoye market, when, during a fight with traders, a policeman's skull was fractured. There then began a large-scale operation to identify illegal immigrants. In Gol'yanovo, police officers and FIS found an underground factory, where they apprehended about 1,200 Vietnamese. During further searches were detained several hundred more foreigners who were illegally in Russia. The detention centre, from where foreign illegals are deported, could not accommodate so many migrants. Therefore, the Moscow City Police, together with the Ministry of Emergency Situations and the FIS set up a guarded camp at Gol'yanovo.

    WHAT THEY SAID

    Anton Tsvetkov, member of the Ministry of the Interior Moscow Directory General Council.

    "Honestly, I should hope that within a week this camp business will be resolved, but I doubt it. Most of the immigrants are still undocumented. All will go faster if the Vietnam Embassy starts undertaking its responsibilities around the camp with as little fuss as possible . Actually, this whole tent city for Moscow illegals who are going to be deported needs to be enlarged into a detention centre for foreign nationals. There are reckoned to be about 400 here, but as regards the scale of things needed for Moscow, that is ridiculous: we need a centre for at least 2,000 people."
  13. Hero of Crappy Town

    Hero of Crappy Town Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    Generals in those times were members of the Russian aristocracy which was disproportionally non-Russian as compared to the commoners. I'd rather know how many Francofied Scotts and Baltic Germans were among the soldiers holding the line.

    Yet on the other hand how many non-Russians will describe themselves as Rossiyane in addition to their national name? According to Solzhenitsyin whom I read on this the answer is very, very few. So, as he asks, what is the point of such a designation when it in fact fails to hold little if any sincere appeal for the non-Russians?

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