Crimea and the Ukraine Russia's worst foreign policy adventure

Discussion in 'The Near Abroad' started by john smith, Mar 4, 2014.

  1. john smith

    john smith Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    Is there anything Putin supporters won’t criticise?

    The recent events in Crimea and the Ukraine is Russia's worst foreign policy adventure in decades.

    I don't have the time just now and will post the numerous reasons later.
  2. PCO VolgaTrader

    PCO VolgaTrader Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    Later never came, I guess.
  3. Morgoth

    Morgoth Office Registrar (13th class)

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    In my opinion, Russia's handling of the crisis has been correct for several reasons, firstly, a more aggressive policy would have strengthened the junta in Kiev while the current strategy will bring about its slow drawn out collapse. Secondly, Russia has been able to show the world, and here by the word "world", I do not mean America and its puppet states but the rest of the world the hypocrisy, cynicism and quite frankly, criminal behavior that America is prepared to undertake to achieve its ends, if Russia had acted sooner, none of this would have been possible.

    Thirdly, and this reasons relates to the Donbass, there was I believe no guarantee that a majority of the populations of either Lugansk or Donetsk supported separation even a few months ago, now that fact is all but assured.
  4. Carlo

    Carlo Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    After seeing what is happening in Lugansk and Donestks, there can be no doubt that what Russia did in Crimea was morally right. The lives and prosperity of 1 million people were saved thanks to that annexation.
    Drutten likes this.
  5. PCO VolgaTrader

    PCO VolgaTrader Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    The Junta collapsed about four weeks after it was formed. Various members committed suicide and or shot themselves while cleaning guns. The elected Ukraine parliament regained control. The Russian media was inclined to overlook this. Yes, the Parliament contained elected members of Svodoba.

    After the intrusion of the Russian nationalists who started the military confrontation, there will be few supporters for Russian Fascism in the Donbass. (None of the militia terrorists were elected. Public officials in their way were disappeared). I would guess 10-20% mostly over 50 years old. There will be polarization. The rest of the Donbass will be very antagonistic to any Russian nationalists who remain identifiable and fail to flee. They imposed themselves into the situation without local support. Such people as they gathered locally were long term misfits attracted by $300 a month later boosted to $500 with $800 for specialists. Vostock, the one genuinely local group in composition paid even more. Some units paid $100 a day for fighting days. Foreigners, of whom there were too many got, on the whole, nothing.

    Lavrov is now busy peddling the line that Ukraine is an internal Ukrainian problem. Previously it was all about meddling foreigners. (except of course ignoring the Russian blockade of Ukrainian exports that started all this). The Russian governments failure to detain people on its territory for private ownership of armoured vehicles, allowing the running of terrorist training camps and money laundering of their funds has prolonged this agony greatly.
  6. Carlo

    Carlo Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    I am not aware of many of the issues you raise, as I am not following the Ukrainian crisis closely, but the fact that you call the Donbass insurrection "terrorists" is very suspicious for me. Terrorists, really? What terrorist act have they ever committed? They haven't attacked any civilian target, nor anything outside of their region. And don't talk about flight MH17 because we still don't know what happened, if one day we will ever know.
  7. PCO VolgaTrader

    PCO VolgaTrader Collegiate Registrar (14th class)

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    It is the first time I have used the term terrorists. However, they have started expansionist operations in which civilians will be killed. They are not, on the whole, supported by the populations of the territories they occupy. Like the IRA, they are supported by a substantial minority of ethnic Russians who are themselves a minority in Donetsk. (Lugansk is about 50/50). A substantial minority of a substantial minority is big enough to cause endless trouble but does not justify killing the neighbours. (The position of the state is different. Russia was happy to kill 200,000 civilians - Russian figures- to restore Russian rule to Grozny. Until the supply convoy "Humanitarian Aid" arrived, the rebels sustained themselves by looting, a tradition for advance forces in the Russian army. Again, terrorism. What the trucks took back to Russia is probably as important as what they took in. The Mother's Committee reported a surge in dead sons after the lorries came back.

    I reserved judgement on Putin's personal position. Sometimes even Stalin had to let his subordinates have their way. Since his Seliger speech, it is clear that he is right behind the action and it is wholly an operation sustained from Russia. He should not have returned in 2012. The wrong group (Siloviki) is now in unchallengeable power in Russia at a time when the economy is going to slide badly. Really, it is time for the Communists to return but it won't happen. They need Kudrin and they need one Tower full of Siloviki. =Tower is a Tower of the Kremlin, the groups that Putin depends on. There are two Siloviki towers. The Dresden/St Petersburgers mid level FSB officers of Putin's mid career, who will never revolt and the Moscow Tower of senior FSB officials. It won't happen. Any form of democracy in Russia is on borrowed time at least until P resigns because no credible opposition can form.
  8. Carlo

    Carlo Ship Secretary (11th class)

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    There is no point of comparison between the Chechen insurgency and the East Ukrainian. Even before the war, the Chechen nationalists started attacking and killing ethnic Russians in the north of the republic, and soon after the First Chechen War started, they also began with terrorist attacks (the Budyonnovsk hospital hostage in 1995, just 6 months after Russian federal troops were sent to Chechnya). The East Ukrainian rebels may be looting, but they are not taking hostages (except Ukrainian servicemen, who are serving in the area and are exchanged for rebels captured), not putting bombs in Kiev or other areas. And after the First War, soon a complete "jihadization" of Chechnya began, with fundamentalists coming from abroad, and terrorists attacks reached a maximum. Russia had to react, a blood war was inevitable, unfortunately.
    The war in East Ukraine was easily avoidable. I prefer not to call the rebels "pro-Russia", because I really don't think they would have problems living in an independent Ukraine, as they have been for more than 20 years, if only some basic rights are respected. But Western Ukrainians want to have a complete homogeneity with Ukrainian language, NATO and EU membership and Russophobic politics a la Baltic States, are fully supported by the West and the current regime won't settle for less. This is the main issue.

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